Forcing vaccination

[Peaceiseveryrhing]

Just read this on the Beeb

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-55718553

Personally, I think it's outrageous that employees may insist on vaccination and airlines preventing travel.

A communistic approach!

@pointythings

The last census was 10 years ago. You also need to break that data down by age - how many people of working age don't own a passport? Bet it's less than 17%.

Owning a passport does not equate to using one for travel.

I remember all the videos of people who's partners or parents had dies bleating on about how people needed to take this seriously and that Covid did kill people.

I wonder when we'll get the videos of the kids of dead parents pleading with people saying their parents had refused the vaccine and are dead.

Some people get what they deserve, I guess.

We know this kills. We know exactly how to protect ourselves (don't let it go into the holes in your face.) And we know how to protect the people we love (Don't take risks, don't get infected, and don't infect other people if you show symptoms.) It isn't rocket science. We're talking double digit IQ level stuff here.

*All the government need to do is rumour that vaccination will be necessary for international travel

The UK government has repeated numerous times that it has no plans to make Covid vaccines mandatory.*

Vaccination will be necessary for travel to certain countries, that is inevitable. Countries that previously required Swine / Bird Flu vaccinations will most certainly be quick to the trigger on this one once they do start opening up. And it will be nothing to do with the British Government. Anyone who has travelled to countries requiring vaccination for entry already has a vaccine passport, I will be getting mine stamped when I get the vaccination because it is inevitable that the countries I travel to most will require it.

@Emilyontmoor

*All the government need to do is rumour that vaccination will be necessary for international travel

The UK government has repeated numerous times that it has no plans to make Covid vaccines mandatory.*

Vaccination will be necessary for travel to certain countries, that is inevitable. Countries that previously required Swine / Bird Flu vaccinations will most certainly be quick to the trigger on this one once they do start opening up. And it will be nothing to do with the British Government. Anyone who has travelled to countries requiring vaccination for entry already has a vaccine passport, I will be getting mine stamped when I get the vaccination because it is inevitable that the countries I travel to most will require it.

I agree with you. The UK Govt might be saying vaccine passports won’t be mandatory but plenty of other countries won’t agree I’m sure. The Head of Qantas airlines has already stated that evidence of vaccination will be a pre-requisite for people wanting to fly with them and Scott Morrison has said that ‘any successful vaccine would become as mandatory as you could possibly make it’ adding that ‘there are always exemptions on medical grounds, but that should be the only basis’.

[quote trulydelicious]@Arobase

The Equality Act categories of protected characteristics are perfectly clear

Acts can be amended right?

Wont' be necessary, but you never know, if nutters insist on banning the few unvaccinated/late to be vaccinated people from society.[/quote]
Sure, but unless and until they are by due Parliamentary process it's pointless to speculate on what might be in an amended Act.

@lightand

Add in those who will carry on refusing the vaccine, and there is a quite substantial number who will not go abroad for holidays. They will choose no vaccine above a holiday abroad. Though there will be some with family abroad. But I guess, family could come to them instead.

And that's absolutely fine. It demonstrates that in fact there is a choice. If an airline chooses to say it won't carry people unless they are vaccinated, it isn't forcing the population to be vaccinated.

If the other people on the plane are vaccinated then why are they at risk from an unvaccinated person? Perhaps because some of them are not immune from the vaccine? In which case they could also be putting people at risk. The unvaccinated person may actually be immune through having had the disease though. It's all a bit silly really. Virtue signalling.

We know exactly how to protect ourselves

But what about people who can't protect themselves? Patients in hospital, people in care homes? They may be physically unable to put on a mask, wash their hands, or move away from someone to maintain social distancing.

If the other people on the plane are vaccinated then why are they at risk from an unvaccinated person?

There may be people on the plane who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons.

videos of people who's partners or parents had dies bleating on...

What a delightful way of describing a bereaved person talking about their loss.

ElliFAntspoo Thu 04-Feb-21 12:45:37

Practically my entire family are carers. One has accumulated 36 such certificates for this training course or that at last count. I am very familiar with the education system in the care system (well the care of the elderly anyways).

Were they little certificates though? Given in return for watching a video and answering some multiple choice questions?

I don't believe half the posters spouting off about what they do. If I did, I'd feel incredibly sorry for their customers/clients.

@UserEleventyNine

We know exactly how to protect ourselves

But what about people who can't protect themselves? Patients in hospital, people in care homes? They may be physically unable to put on a mask, wash their hands, or move away from someone to maintain social distancing.

If the other people on the plane are vaccinated then why are they at risk from an unvaccinated person?

There may be people on the plane who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons.

videos of people who's partners or parents had dies bleating on...

What a delightful way of describing a bereaved person talking about their loss.

There should be a ban on unvaccinated people from working in public service where they come into contact with the public. You cannot sanction any public body threatening the public by employing ignorant and selfish cunts who force themselves on helpless people.

I have no issue with those people wanting to infect and kill people in their own home. It is for the spouse to decide whether or not to protect her children, or for the family to make the decision that orphaning their kids is a price worth paying.

The issue I have is with them deciding they will take their own infections to work and look for victims there.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe

ElliFAntspoo Thu 04-Feb-21 12:45:37

Practically my entire family are carers. One has accumulated 36 such certificates for this training course or that at last count. I am very familiar with the education system in the care system (well the care of the elderly anyways).

Were they little certificates though? Given in return for watching a video and answering some multiple choice questions?

I don't believe half the posters spouting off about what they do. If I did, I'd feel incredibly sorry for their customers/clients.

They were little A4 things run off on an office printer. I'm sure we've all seen the sorts of things people get when they do a CPD course.

There may be people on the plane who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons.

That’s true for lots of different diseases. The unvaccinated person is the person who is taking the risk by travelling.

BBC reporting that Denmark and Sweden are preparing to introduce vaccination certificates. So those are two countries unvaccinated people won't be travelling to.

I'll be surprised if Aus and NZ don't require evidence of vaccination for people wanting to enter. Then the airlines will be requiring it because they won't want to carry people all the way there only to have to bring them back again because they're refused entry.

@ElliFAntspooSo insulting to carers and insulting towards your relatives.

Perhaps because some of them are not immune from the vaccine? In which case they could also be putting people at risk. The unvaccinated person may actually be immune through having had the disease though. It's all a bit silly really. Virtue signalling.

Possibly the most ridiculous use of the ridiculous term "virtue signalling" to try and close down debate I have ever seen

The whole point of vaccination is that you reduce the level and transmission of a disease by a high percentage. Immunity does the same but is less predictable. Some people seem to lose it quickly, others hang on. I still have antibodies but I wouldn't dream of not taking the opportunity to have the vaccine for that reason. Finding out I had antibodies meant nothing because nobody could tell me if I had actual immunity, I still had to be careful.

An airline might decide that to reduce the chance of transmission on the plane (and whatever the airline say it does get transmitted on planes, Hong Kong publish a list of the seat numbers of cases on planes, it is scary, always in clusters) they will require a vaccine passport unless you are medically exempt. That will reduce transmission. End of. No virtue signalling. That is the science....

@UserEleventyNine - yes, see my post above about Australia and Qantas.

@Emilyontmoor I'm not trying to close down the debate at all. If the airlines want to reduce the chance of transmission on the plane then it would make more sense to ask for proof of immunity rather than proof of vaccination. The vaccine doesn't guarantee immunity. We don't yet know how long it lasts. We have plenty of data now showing that immunity from natural infection lasts 6-8+ months. So someone who has had the disease may be immune and someone who has had the vaccine may not. Why should the person with the vaccine certificate be allowed to travel and potentially put others at risk but the immune person can not? See? Silly.

We have plenty of data now showing that immunity from natural infection lasts 6-8+ months No we don't. We have evidence that antibodies persist for 6 to 8 months and that people with antibodies don't seem to be getting it again on any scale but we are a long way from understanding immunity to the extent of issuing passports with the same degree of confidence as for vaccines. People can get it twice, and within six months. The vaccine development process gathers much more exhaustive follow up data so that at any given time an airline will know if a vaccine certificate is proof of a certain level of immunity.

My family may well have had immunity to swine flu since my daughter had it but we wouldn't have dreamt of flying to Asia and saying "well we don't have a vaccine passport but we had it so let us in". So we got the jab, which incidentally is one of the ones that makes you fluey for a couple of days.

Believe me if you don't have the jab forget flying anywhere in Asia or Australasia for a very long time....

@bumbleymummy if you leave rates of infection high in any community we are more likely to get mutations. These airlines won't want to carry unvaccinated people who have the potential to bring new variants to their countries.

we are a long way from understanding immunity to the extent of issuing passports with the same degree of confidence as for vaccines.

We don't know how long vaccine immunity lasts. We do know that they're nowhere near 100% effective.

No one wants a vaccination ....but we all need one. This is a life and death situation and sometimes you just have to take one for the team.
I would not want to sit next to someone who was not vaccinated on a plane or have someone who refused vaccination for no good reason teach my child.
Everyone has a choice but people also have a choice to avoid contact with those who miss their vaccine on purpose.

@monicacat

No one wants a vaccination ....but we all need one. This is a life and death situation and sometimes you just have to take one for the team. I would not want to sit next to someone who was not vaccinated on a plane or have someone who refused vaccination for no good reason teach my child. Everyone has a choice but people also have a choice to avoid contact with those who miss their vaccine on purpose.

Um..no we don't and no, it isn't. People in my age group with no comoribities have a tiny IFR that I am more than willing to take my chances with. Children have an even tinier IFR. People have really started blowing this out of proportion.

Do you usually check everyone is up to date with their vaccines when you get on a plane? Chances are that you could be sitting next to someone who hasn't had any number of the vaccines that you've had or that we give to children today and you don't even think twice about it.

@pointythings

inquietant your point about voluntary vaccination may have been true before the era of anti-vaxxer conspiracy batshittery, but we aren't in Kansas any more. For whatever reason, people believe nonsense about this vaccine (and others). If we want out of COVID, we may temporarily have to be a little less precious about voluntary vaccination at least for those people who are in contact with ill and vulnerable patients. I don't have a problem with that, call me authoritarian.

Read the UK data.

In France 40% are reluctant, in UK only 14%

Don't invent problems that don't exist - we have enough real ones!

People in my age group with no comoribities have a tiny IFR that I am more than willing to take my chances with.

It's not just about you!

The point of vaccinating people with a low risk (when the high risk categories have been done) is to stop, or reduce, transmission throughout the population. Everyone who says 'I'll take my chances' is reducing the overall effectiveness of the vaccine at population level.

Look what has happened with measles as a result of fewer people having their children vaccinated.

[quote vodkaredbullgirl]@ElliFAntspooSo insulting to carers and insulting towards your relatives.[/quote]
Why, because they are not as educated as some? At least they are vaccinated. You appear to have a chip on your shoulder about care workers, but you've said nothing about whether or not they should be vaccinated, which is the entire point of the thread. Evasive much?