Forcing vaccination

[Peaceiseveryrhing]

Just read this on the Beeb

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-55718553

Personally, I think it's outrageous that employees may insist on vaccination and airlines preventing travel.

A communistic approach!

Terrible idea. If their goal is actually to reduce risk rather than just virtue signaling then they should looking for be proof of immunity. People who haven’t been vaccinated can be immune through natural infection and those who are vaccinated may not be immune. We know how long natural acquired immunity lasts (6-8+ months) and we don’t know how long vaccine immunity lasts yet.

@minchinfin

I'll also be selectively choosing Pimlico Plumbers, as well as any other companies that will be mandating vaccines for all but medically exempt (with doctors letter) or age exempt employees - I want to know that anyone coming into my house or whom I am mixing with in the workplace has had the vaccine.

If you have the vaccine yourself you don't need to worry about whether other people have had it.

Worry about yourself, don't impose on others.

My only exception to that is medical and care home staff. They should be vaccinated (not just against covid).

@Kokeshi123

Basically this is a pandemic and a lot of normal rules have gone out of the window.

It wouldn't usually be appropriate for governments to make it illegal for private citizens to meet in each others' houses. That should give us an indication of how unusual the current situation is. So the normal rules of vaccines (for example, that airlines or employers or schools have no right to insist or pressure) do not necessarily apply right now either.

This is an unprecedented situation. I am fine with putting some pressure on.

Otherwise, we are in this ridiculous situation where it is fine for the government to restrict people's liberties in situations like banning hugging or takeaway coffees, but not OK to restrict any liberties when it comes to the very things that are actually going to get us out of this shit. Which is a dysfunctional and ridiculous situation.

Totally agree with you @Kokeshi123. I can’t get why people don’t understand this! Bleeting about personal choice and human rights regarding the vaccine when it’s the very key to getting our freedom and normality back!

*If you have the vaccine yourself you don't need to worry about whether other people have had it.

Worry about yourself, don't impose on others.

My only exception to that is medical and care home staff. They should be vaccinated (not just against covid).*

I'm in my forties, fit and healthy and so I won't be able to be vaccinated for a long time, so I will be worrying about whether other people have had it, thanks, and will be keeping any that haven't well away from me as per current social distancing guidelines,, especially fuckwits who don't wear masks or who say they wouldn't have the vaccine.

Bleeting about personal choice and human rights regarding the vaccine when it’s the very key to getting our freedom and normality back!

How does turning the UK into an authoritarian state = getting our freedom back

@inquietant - in case you haven’t noticed we are already in an authoritarian state at the moment! I thought it was clear from my post that I meant freedom from current lockdown and yes, the vaccine is a crucial part of that process.

@Frequentflier

first arguing that the vaccines were dangerous and side effects unknown

I never said that the Covid vaccines were 'dangerous'. I've stated that the vaccines are new and that it's not yet known whether there could be any long-term side effects as not enough time has passed. This argument is still valid in my view

The science is catching up with you though

I hope it does, and I read every piece of good news with enthusiasm (e.g. transmission. Israel, etc) as I would like to be able to have one of these vaccines when I'm ready should it still be necessary.

I just think no one should be coerced to take them (besides the human rights issue, they have only just been given emergency approval)

All of the above does not make me an anti-vaxx - also I've mentioned before that I've had all childhood and travel immunisations - including Yellow Fever and flu.

How does turning the UK into an authoritarian state = getting our freedom back?
If you do not have the vaccine, how does forcing yourself upon other people who have no choice and cannot avoid you, leave or otherwise protect themselves fall under your understanding of 'freedom'?

Or do you believe that anyone who has refused a vaccine should be entitled to force themselves upon others against their will and without disclosing that they may be infected and may kill them?

I've asked the question many times and whilst everyone seems to believe they should be able to do whatever they wish, how do you stop people who refuse the vaccine from holding positions of power over others and choosing to approach them? Nurses, teachers, care workers, police, security guards. They can all carry and infect other people, but they are all able to expose themselves to people who have no choice.

If you do not have the vaccine, how does forcing yourself upon other people who have no choice and cannot avoid you, leave or otherwise protect themselves fall under your understanding of 'freedom'?

We're struggling with this in our Trust. We do not want our staff forced to have the vaccine, but they work with some truly vulnerable people, and we cannot in all good conscience allow them to see patients in their own homes if they refuse vaccination. This has now come into acute focus because of the mounting evidence that the vaccine does reduce transmission.

We can't give all of them non-frontline jobs, so staff who refuse the vaccine are effectively refusing to be employable.

Given that I'm an otherwise healthy woman in her 30s, I'm going to be absolutely at the bottom of the list for being offered the vaccine. I'm happy, if the science says it's safe, for the people who've had it already to not have to wait for me to be vaccinated to do things they would like to do.

However, I do have religious objections to some of the vaccines (Catholic - some are made of tissue from dead babies, some are not), so will only accept certain ones. I assume this will limit my access too it and so I will have to wait for longer.

What if we have another baby and I am pregnant when offered a vaccine, and then breastfeeding? I could easily be looking at the next three years without a vaccine right there.

Am I to be locked into my house for the rest of my life if I don't have the vaccine? Denied a job for the rest of my life? Unable to travel overseas for the rest of my life?

I support a vaccine passport as a time-limited measure for the provision of certain non-essential goods and services, but think that it should be abolished as soon as everyone in the UK has been OFFERED the vaccine.

@SandSeaBeach

Haven’t read through the thread. But having travelled extensively; I have been to several countries in the world that require proof of specific vaccinations - or else you don’t come in. Simples

How does that work if you can't have it, then? E.g. allergic to egg proteins in the vaccine? Can you literally never in your life go to SIngapore?

No COVID-19 vaccine contains cells from aborted fetuses.
A replica cell line from a fetus aborted in 1973 was used to develop the AstraZeneca/Oxford University vaccine. However, the vaccine itself does not contain fetal cells.
New mRNA vaccines, such as those being developed by Pfizer and Moderna, are synthetic vaccines, sequenced on a computer in a lab, and do not use fetal cell lines in their production.

Do you know what a cell line is?

How does that work if you can't have it, then? E.g. allergic to egg proteins in the vaccine? Can you literally never in your life go to SIngapore?

Yes, if Singapore decides on a no-exemptions approach, just like you can’t go to Sierra Leone if you haven’t had your yellow fever vaccination and they choose not to accept your medical exemption certificate.

@minchinfin

No COVID-19 vaccine contains cells from aborted fetuses. A replica cell line from a fetus aborted in 1973 was used to develop the AstraZeneca/Oxford University vaccine. However, the vaccine itself does not contain fetal cells. New mRNA vaccines, such as those being developed by Pfizer and Moderna, are synthetic vaccines, sequenced on a computer in a lab, and do not use fetal cell lines in their production.

Do you know what a cell line is?

Yup. Sorry, "made of", was me trying to be succinct and keep to the main point of my post.

The Catholic Church teaches that in general, having vaccines is a matter for one's individual conscience, but there are certain principles to bear in mind and weigh up against each other, such as "material cooperation in evil" (in this case a fancy way of saying the vaccine's relationship however close or far with abortion) and the good to society if you have the vaccine.

This video does a pretty good job of explaining it, though it's a little out of date now:

I'm low risk, don't work, haven't got any massive plans to go to football matches or raves. Exactly as you say - I'll have the Pfizer/Moderna one but not the AstraZeneca/Oxford one. And I'm happy to wait for it.

@PerspicaciousGreen

The Pope has said the use of Covid vaccines developed using these cell lines would be acceptable where no alternative was available

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55409693

I understand you may still reject them though

Devlesko is a bit of a know it all. Knows more about vaccines that those sheeple scientists.

[quote trulydelicious]@PerspicaciousGreen

The Pope has said the use of Covid vaccines developed using these cell lines would be acceptable where no alternative was available

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55409693

I understand you may still reject them though[/quote]
But alternatives are available so I'm not sure what your point is? Except that maybe it's the same as mine, about weighing up options and making your own decision?

@PerspicaciousGreen

Yes, I mean that if you only have the option of having the Oxford-AZ one (due to allergies for instance), to bear in mind that the Pope has accepted it's use

Do you know what PerspicaciousGreen?

Even though your concerns and life experience are a million miles from my own, my only response to your calm and rational description of why the AZ vaccine wouldn't be acceptable to you is "fair enough".

You have actually come across as reasoned and logical compared to the people who go on about all sorts of unproven, unevidenced and highly unlikely side effects. Your reason for not wanting that particular vaccine is actually based on fact and makes sense as you explain it, in contrast to people saying "it affects fertility" and all the other nonsense. As an atheist, I salute you.

I am not a priority but I don't think it should be mandatory. I am worried they have rushed it through and although it is promised to reduce symptoms, but not stop spread (which is disappointing!) I am worried about the fact it is still officially classed as experimental. I want to wait until it has passed all trials.
Even the MHRA (Medicines and Healthcare Regulatory Authority) conceded that "the timelines of the coronavirus vaccine has been accelerated so fast that an accurate analysis of their safety may not be available when they start to be trialled in national immunisation campaigns."

So I will wait, and hope it isn't mandatory until all trials are complete.

www.healthcareitnews.com/news/emea/uk-use-ai-covid-19-vaccine-side-effects

@minchinfin Haha, thanks from me and the other 1.2 billion of us! It really is just official church teaching. Logical and reasonable sounds good to me! All in a days work for... (swishes gold damask superhero cloak)... Catholic Woman.

Now, back to vaccine passport scaremongering...

Pointless. I wonder whether all the the people with n'er a biology GCSE between them will ever come back when the international vaccine campaign ends this pandemic, in due course, and say, well, yes, we may have taken that "its been rushed/it causes /it won't stop transmission" stuff in the press and run with it a bit.

I am not a priority but I don't think it should be mandatory. I am worried they have rushed it through and although it is promised to reduce symptoms, but not stop spread (which is disappointing!)

You’re out of date. There’s now evidence that the Oxford vaccine at least significantly reduces transmission. It’s unlikely others won’t have the same effect to some degree.