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What do EU nationals think of the vaccines mess?

999 replies

Frazzled2207 · 30/01/2021 10:10

I’m a committed remainer. But the EU really did mess up last night. More seriously they are not in a good position right now with regards vaccine supply. Lots of anti-Eu posts here right now from committed remainers like me.

Just wondering what EU citizens make of all this and is there any bad feeling towards the UK? Do you think the EU has a right to some of the UK’s vaccine supply? Are people angry at the fact that the UK was able to secure more vaccines more quickly? Or are we coming across as selfish idiots?
Generally curious and am not here to start an argument

OP posts:
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Barababam · 04/02/2021 15:15

@Floppywin: data for Denmark: nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2020-12-09-overblik-saadan-er-status-paa-corona-vaccinen-lige-nu. Updated daily. There’s also a vaccine plan available. Originally were saying all offered vaccine by week 25 and now saying by week 26.

DdraigGoch · 04/02/2021 15:27

2- because having the highest death toll per million is not a sign of being great at all...
@ParadiseIsland the UK didn't have the highest death toll per million. On reported figures, Belgium and Slovenia both did considerably worse. If we look at excess deaths (so that we can get a picture of the unreported Covid deaths) then Spain has undoubtedly had far more than it has admitted to.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 04/02/2021 15:37

I think we really need to stop looing at the published numbers and thinking they tell us anything concrete. They don't. Not yet! There are far too many confounding factors and the panedemic has not yet run its course!

tatutata · 04/02/2021 15:54

@Floppywin actually vdL has never been a very good politician and is quite hated in Germany. She made a mess of successive ministries and had a habit of blaming her staff. She was widely seen as having been banished to Brussels... It's a mystery, as she must be a very intelligent woman, she just somehow promises way more than she can deliver. I was very impressed when she first became families minister. Mainly because I wanted a mother to succeed. It's a shame.

Floppywin · 04/02/2021 16:01

@Barababam
Thank you for that it is very interesting - I like the way it is broken down in age and sex - seems lot more women than men - I don't think I've seen it broken down like that in UK. It would be expected in the older age groups to be more women I guess due to longer life expectancy.

I see Denmark are doing very well and are in the dark blue with a few other countries in the world in their delivery to date which is very good news. I shall look at that link from time to time as it is really well presented information and as you say updated daily.

Spread right across the age groups with the highest being ages 50-59 which I expect is accounted for by the numbers of various health care professionals they list as being on the top of their priority list.

I see the preliminary vaccine plan was updated as at end of January which is good to see plan and seems to say over 65s by mid-April? (over 65 working in care in the higher priority group though).

That's what I'm confused about as the French poster yesterday was implying the over-65s to be at end of Feb, which I felt didn't take into account the new information on availability of vaccines in February for EU region.

Why do you think Denmark are doing better than some of the neighbouring countries for numbers of injections administered percentage to the population ie Netherlands?

The only French information I can find is nowhere near as clearly presented in actual statistics as to age groups receiving the vaccine and because of Macron's outbursts with pseudo vaccine I am interested to see the plans for France.

I was also interested to see on the link the information for each vaccine and noted that re: AZ it said:

Despite the lack of data - and the fact that the German Ministry of Health announced on Thursday that it would not approve the vaccine for people over 65 - the EMA's assessment is that the vaccine from AstraZeneca also has a positive effect on the elderly.

In addition, it is considered that the vaccine is safe, and it is therefore recommended that it can be used for people in the elderly groups.

  • Based on the knowledge we have, the vaccine can be used for people over 18, and we do not set a ceiling, it sounded from EMA's director, Emer Cooke, at a press conference earlier Friday.

So they do note that it is suitable for elderly and Denmark haven't publicly made announcements that the UK elderly population are receiving a "psuedo" vaccine. So that's the reason I'm interested in seeing how things pan out in France after his gift to vaccine refusers the world over.

I note they say 60% effective too, which obviously with new data becoming available asap will provide confirmation of higher percentage which will reassure (particularly the poorer countries where the AZ vaccine is going to be the most useful due to storage issues).

3asAbird · 04/02/2021 16:05

@CuriousaboutSamphire

I think we really need to stop looing at the published numbers and thinking they tell us anything concrete. They don't. Not yet! There are far too many confounding factors and the panedemic has not yet run its course!
I agree so much has changed and can changed. This wave been worse than the 1st. Interesting table in the guardian total number of cases in total of pandemic and deaths so far and cases and deaths last 2 weeks. The UK was worse than Brazil last 2 weeks . Actual total deaths south Africa not hugely different to eu countries and lower in total deaths than Germany. Not sure we trust Russian figures or few other countries. I know Portugal bad right now but overall this pandemic not bad. The fear is the new strains and how might effect America and Europe specifically. Germany high deaths last 2 weeks.. Its highly probable the Kent varient or some other maybe part of German's rising cases and deaths they started out really well compared to other countries within the eu. Israel surprised me too I assumed they had loads deaths because speed of vaccination programme. I know Belgium has struggled. Not sure how Sweden doing currently Spain I perceived in my head and probably way uk media portrays it as worse than France but France is worse than Spain.

My worry for us all where ever we are is 3rd waves.
If we don't shut borders like australia or new Zealand this virus will keep spreading.

What do EU nationals think of the vaccines mess?
Floppywin · 04/02/2021 16:12

@tatutata - yes, I had heard that but that makes me think more she's a scapegoat really. As it's a bit like you wouldn't want to put someone really good there because they wouldn't be playing along with the whole "I'm in charge" and being grateful for being put there.

The list of Presidents at EU is not at all inspiring and some are worrying; there must be a reason that it suits the whole outfit to have someone to pin blame on from time to time.

The EU machinery and layers are too large and trying to spin too many plates whilst always moving forward with the "project". UVDL jumped on a moving train with plenty of steam in it and is on for the ride, but might get thrown off sooner than expected. I don't really believe any President is actually driving the EU train - they have pressure from member countries to deal with as well. An impossible task.

The EU wouldn't ever have handled the vaccine procurement well, it should have been left to individual countries IMO.

DdraigGoch · 04/02/2021 17:07

[quote tatutata]@Floppywin actually vdL has never been a very good politician and is quite hated in Germany. She made a mess of successive ministries and had a habit of blaming her staff. She was widely seen as having been banished to Brussels... It's a mystery, as she must be a very intelligent woman, she just somehow promises way more than she can deliver. I was very impressed when she first became families minister. Mainly because I wanted a mother to succeed. It's a shame.[/quote]
Sounds like the German public think of her as we think of Chris Grayling. Pity that we couldn't have banished him to Brussels. There seem to be so many commissioners who seem to have been put there because their own country has had enough of them. Peter Mandelson, Jean-Claude Junker etc.

Barababam · 04/02/2021 19:17

@Floppywin I am finding the Danish authorities very open with information and data, which is why I think most Danes are happy (I'm not Danish, if that matters, but from another EU country). Danes are also typically very trusting, including of their government, so Iøm not surprised here either.

I have noted the higher ratio of women. I think it's part the longer life expectancy, but also that women represent a big proportion of health care workers.

Denmark is doing well, but I cannot avoid being suspicious that the highest category on that World map is aligned with Denmark to show how good we are :D:

I don't think Denmark is doing that much better than most other European countries. I can see that Malta is ahead of us, and the others are pretty much right behind us.

They have said that we're doing well for a number of administrative reasons. Things like, we already had a vaccine register where all vaccines from birth are registered. My understanding is that the Netherlands didn't have a vaccine register, so had to develop one from scratch. Everything in Denmark is tracked on the basis of one number (our ID number) so it is easier to keep track of everything. The country is divided into 5 regions, who are responsible for health, which meant that vaccines only needed to be divided into 5 regions, which then was responsible to distribute the vaccines within their region. I have also read somewhere that we had the 'special needles' which meant we could get 6 or even 7 doses from each vial, which meant effectivity (you can see vaccination effectivities over 100% for the regions).

Denmark has also come out today saying that AZ vaccines will be given to healthcare workers under 65 and elderly will be given Moderna/Pfizer, as I hypothesised they would do yesterday. I'm not surprised. It has nothing to do with anti-UK sentiment or whatever some have written here and all to do with that they want the evidence to be complete. Once it is (they sound like they expect it to be fine so it's a when it happens not an if it happens situation) then they will use AZ vaccines on the elderly too. We don't have big amounts of cases (actually lockdown is starting to be lifted, with younger school kids returning to school from Monday) so the rush and stress to get vaccines asap is just not there. I think that's a sensible decision.

QuentinInQuarantino · 04/02/2021 19:29

If we look at excess deaths (so that we can get a picture of the unreported Covid deaths) then Spain has undoubtedly had far more than it has admitted to. @DdraigGoch on what is this assertion based?

Floppywin · 04/02/2021 21:57

@Barababam
that's very interesting to hear the Danish picture, it sounds good - I guess having a small population must help.

I see about the potential differences between Netherlands and Denmark administrative systems may make managing Covid easier or potentially more difficult. I heard about the special needles - lots of things can make a big different at this stage of the pandemic.

"Denmark is doing well, but I cannot avoid being suspicious that the highest category on that World map is aligned with Denmark to show how good we are :D:"

ha ha ! Smile I see what you mean.

off topic: in lockdown last time I got into "The Rain" and found the language fascinating (assume it's second language for you maybe?) but I'd heard comedian Simon Talbot saying Danish was considered an ugly language so had him in mind, but didn't find it "ugly" at all - tried catching some words and enjoyed that side as much as the story. Story gets a bit flabby as where to go with it? Loved the way they pronounce the character "Rasmus" name and all the young actors in it were good.

DdraigGoch · 04/02/2021 23:06

@QuentinInQuarantino

If we look at excess deaths (so that we can get a picture of the unreported Covid deaths) then Spain has undoubtedly had far more than it has admitted to. *@DdraigGoch* on what is this assertion based?
By comparing cumulative excess mortality.
Waspnest · 04/02/2021 23:14

But how many posters here are reading EU press in native language versus EU press in English (not sure audience EU English language press is aimed at)

I don't know. I think I read somewhere that English was the most widely used? learnt? understood? language after a country's own in every country in the EU. But I'm assuming that papers like Bild and La Repubblica are published in their own languages and we're seeing translations?

Is English still one of the three procedural languages in the EU institution or has it been dropped since Brexit?

TheGravelRoad · 05/02/2021 00:50

But how many posters here are reading EU press in native language versus EU press in English (not sure audience EU English language press is aimed at)

I wouldn't even know where to find English language press covering my country. I read in the native language only.

Barababam · 05/02/2021 06:17

@Floppywin: If you look at percentages vaccinated in EU most countries are not that far off Denmark, so it is likelt that the perspective for most EU citizens is similar to mine here: vaccines going out at a steady rate; we'll get there. There are of course countries ahead but in the global picture we're actually doing very well. Could we do better? Of course! But it's an always changing pandemic! Cannot get everything right.

As to the language, yes Danish is not my first language. I guess main issue with Danish is that it is mainly a mumble. If you don't know the language you would never guess how to spell a word as mostly it is just not sounded. A nightmare! (I was also surprised that all the Danes I asked they were never told not to mumble/to talk clearly in school!! or to project their voice or anything like that, which was a constant for us!).

@Waspnest: yes English is widely known. I would say English is my second language and Danish is my third (or fourth!). But I still never read Danish news in English. It has just never even occurred to me. As @TheGravelRoad said, I'm not even sure where to find it at decent quality. So the English language EU press people here are referring to are not likely to be aimed at the local citizens.

3asAbird · 05/02/2021 06:40

[quote Barababam]@Floppywin I am finding the Danish authorities very open with information and data, which is why I think most Danes are happy (I'm not Danish, if that matters, but from another EU country). Danes are also typically very trusting, including of their government, so Iøm not surprised here either.

I have noted the higher ratio of women. I think it's part the longer life expectancy, but also that women represent a big proportion of health care workers.

Denmark is doing well, but I cannot avoid being suspicious that the highest category on that World map is aligned with Denmark to show how good we are :D:

I don't think Denmark is doing that much better than most other European countries. I can see that Malta is ahead of us, and the others are pretty much right behind us.

They have said that we're doing well for a number of administrative reasons. Things like, we already had a vaccine register where all vaccines from birth are registered. My understanding is that the Netherlands didn't have a vaccine register, so had to develop one from scratch. Everything in Denmark is tracked on the basis of one number (our ID number) so it is easier to keep track of everything. The country is divided into 5 regions, who are responsible for health, which meant that vaccines only needed to be divided into 5 regions, which then was responsible to distribute the vaccines within their region. I have also read somewhere that we had the 'special needles' which meant we could get 6 or even 7 doses from each vial, which meant effectivity (you can see vaccination effectivities over 100% for the regions).

Denmark has also come out today saying that AZ vaccines will be given to healthcare workers under 65 and elderly will be given Moderna/Pfizer, as I hypothesised they would do yesterday. I'm not surprised. It has nothing to do with anti-UK sentiment or whatever some have written here and all to do with that they want the evidence to be complete. Once it is (they sound like they expect it to be fine so it's a when it happens not an if it happens situation) then they will use AZ vaccines on the elderly too. We don't have big amounts of cases (actually lockdown is starting to be lifted, with younger school kids returning to school from Monday) so the rush and stress to get vaccines asap is just not there. I think that's a sensible decision.[/quote]
Thank you really interesting post i have to say having visited Denmark its a lovely country and one I could see myself moving to but don't think I could ever manage Danish in totally rubbish at languages.
I have a old school acquaintance who moved you moved to Netherlands so see her updates and seems like they had quite a strict lockdown.

You also raise excellent points 2 factors

Eu comprised of 27 states sure but I think helathcare is devolved they make their own decisions so provision of healthcare and records vary.
Despite uk having a national healthcare service each devolved nation England Scotland Wales and ni decides what they do.
A lot of departments been sub contacted to private firms and how nhs records keeping can be messy and not very high tech.
We have a red book here when they babies 0-5 to track child immunisation.
We have an nhs nhs number.
But to prove to say airport or travel company what vaccine history is we would have to invest and create a register.

The other point about 27 member states and I get why some British may think this.
The UK has been so bad this autumn winter in terms rising infections,hospital admission, restriction and rising deaths our perception is and our media granted maybe more scare mongering than European press.
But we all feel a sense of urgency over here as we don't want to get the virus, lose a loved one, we hate the restriction on our freedom and economically many are struggling as they either on furlough pay as they work travel or hospitality and the government pays them 80% average wage.
Universal credit is for the ever growing unemployed and low income.
Many self employed have has no support at all.
We have had huge issue here with many refusing to self isolate.
Our children have missed nearly a year of school.
Our track and trace has been far from a world beating success sadly.
Many here feel angry about lack of control over our borders last summer many brits when abroad on holiday.
The only successful think our government has done is procure vaccines and genome sewuencong.
We have some great scientists when the government can be bothered to listen to them.
I think many uk on here agree we far from perfect here , we made many mistakes and we think we better than the eu .
Lots say we a Island so why can't we be like new Zealand or Australia.

The UK is different.
London is a large international hub big finance sector .
We have any international students.
We have many people from all over the world eu and other countries emigrate here so naturally when they resist their family on their home countries there's a lot of travel.
My freind poratgeuse mum comes over frequently.
My relatives usa visit every 2 to 3 years.
Uk seems massively popular tourists destination in summer.

The thing is we have go realise every country and member state is different.
Some have small population, less population dense than UK.
I gather some eu states happy wait longer for their vaccines as the virus not that bad where they are where as others are struggling and high numbers and want the vaccine straight away.
Spain and Italy were badly hit and rely on tourism so can see why they be keener to get vaccine sooner.
I imagine France Austria and Italy taken a hit with loss ski season my eldest was in northern Italy skiing last Feb and only made it back a few days before Italy locked down.
In summer many brits go Spain, Portugal Turkey and Greece so imagine they want vaccines so they can be can improve but also be safe.

Sad to say right now I don't think there should be travel abroad for brits just yet if the rest if Europes not protected.
As I just don't want yet another new strain being brought back.

Restriction of movement even harder in Europe as its key principle so seasonal workers from eu country with high rates if infections could easily change country and go work elsewhere .

I do hope over the few months things improve for all and that we all vaccinated by autumn.

Baileysforchristmas · 05/02/2021 07:55

This is interesting Ursula actually admitted she underestimated how long vaccines take to make.

www.politico.eu/article/von-der-leyen-says-eu-misjudged-complexity-of-manfacturing-coronavirus-vaccines-on-large-scale/

I do wonder how long it is going to take the EU to vaccinate the over 65’s?

Barababam · 05/02/2021 08:49

@3asAbird Healthcare is a devolved responsibility. The only thing that has been combined to my knowledge is purchasing of vaccines (as otherwise the smaller/poorer countries would have had no hope of purchasing vaccines, and a 'fight' between EU countries of who gets vaccines first would have been an even worse situation.

Here furlough has been on 100% at all times (companies need to top up to the total) so it has been fine. Self-employed I am not as sure. AS regards lockdowns I feel that here once the cases icnrease a lockdown has been put in but then slowly released as numbers improve. As an idea though, kindergartens have only been closed for around 5 weeks back in March/April (and not at all now). Smaller classes (years 0-4) were closed for the 5 weeks in March and from just before the Christmas holidays till coming Monday. Older classes have unfortunately been closed for longer (though no kids that age so haven't followed), but are then more able to follow online classes.

So the needs of each country are different, and clearly needs of UK do not match needs of every EU country. This is likely why the reactions from most EU citizens is not as strong as most people on this thread seem to think they should be. Also, vaccine ordering has been an EU responsibility and other covid-19 aspects have been government responsibility. So we cannot just blame everyone for everything.

QuentinInQuarantino · 05/02/2021 09:46

@DdraigGoch

I’m sorry but I don’t really understand (although I’m no statistician)

This is the info for excess mortality I have found showing Germany, England, Spain and Norway. Spain had a worse earlier peak in terms of numbers of cases than England and a slightly better third wave, and the excess mortality seems to match the COVID patterns? Why do you say there are undoubtedly more deaths than they’re admitting to?

What do EU nationals think of the vaccines mess?
newstart1234 · 05/02/2021 09:47

I have an acquaintance from a different Eu country and they are quite despondent at the fact that their home country has got vaccines from the Eu but has forgotten to order needles. They foresee their home country to take much longer therefore to vaccinate than many other Eu countries. Ie it’s not one homogeneous block. I also read the news on danish because that’s the language the news is put out in., you just get used to it after a few years.

3asAbird · 05/02/2021 11:50

@newstart1234

I have an acquaintance from a different Eu country and they are quite despondent at the fact that their home country has got vaccines from the Eu but has forgotten to order needles. They foresee their home country to take much longer therefore to vaccinate than many other Eu countries. Ie it’s not one homogeneous block. I also read the news on danish because that’s the language the news is put out in., you just get used to it after a few years.
Honestly it sounds like a screw up uk would make with needles but uts to do with phizer and Europe asking for 6vials which requires narrow needle to extract.

You totally correct about one homogeneous group the 27 stated vary in so many different ways.
Ie size culture apparently the French are vaccine skeptics, population density, bug elderly population ect.
The vaccines may he been brought out as group but the logistics of roll out within each country be very different.
That may determine the speed if vaccination schedule as well as eu supplying enough vaccine stock to meet demand.
Its fair to say for now and immediate future next 3months as most countries skeptical about az on elderly that eu will be relying on phizer and moderna to make good their orders and speed up production and delivery.

Our outlook on covid 19 depends on our experience and how bad or well our country is doing.
Financially we suffering due to 3lock downs and non essential retail. as a family so I'm hoping vaccines are the path out and less restrictions.
Rates have been so high here and still are.
Our media and government like to scare us senseless to aid compliance.
Maybe other countries are more laid back about it.

Perception v reality is mad thing too.
We saw so much of Italy and Spain struggling on uk TV I perceived Spain be really bad when they have less deaths than France , Italy or UK and on a par with Germany which again media gave uk Perception at the start pandemic that the germans had done a excellent job of managing the pandemic.
But my understanding Germany trickier as lots federal states had agree lockdown like the in USA some states been more strict than others.
Does anyone know if covid has affected German manufacturing output as its impossible social distance in factories as we had few work related outbreaks in the UK.

I wish I was talented enough read news on other lanaguges.

Waspnest · 05/02/2021 14:49

So the English language EU press people here are referring to are not likely to be aimed at the local citizens.

Maybe it's aimed at MNers. Grin

3asAbird · 05/02/2021 15:39

Would EU countries really welcome or approve Russian vaccine or is this just Eastern block?
1500 decisions made within short period of times.
Accepts some failings but still pot shots thrown at uk being too quick Israel compromised privacy of people's health data.
I'm baffled if she's a doctor of epidemiology that she didn't fully understand the difficulty and time frames of producing vaccines.

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/feb/05/ursula-von-der-leyen-uk-covid-vaccine-speedboat-eu-tanker

Baileysforchristmas · 05/02/2021 16:33

And how long is it going to take to get the Russian vaccine? Then the AZ vaccine being slurred by Macron as ineffective, a lot of Europeans won’t want it, so there is going to be a huge gap on up take and supply, especially in the over 65’s

Barababam · 05/02/2021 19:01

@3asAbird: In a recent article a Danish specialist within this field when asked which vaccine he would prefer (they asked a number of different experts) specifically said his preference would be the Russian vaccine, though that is unlikely as not approved in Europe. So there is faith amongst people who know about these things in the Russian vaccine it seems (I haven't looked into it so far as hasn't been relevant). I cannot find the article unfortunately now. If the EMA approve it then yes why should people not consider the Russian one? Do you know anything bad about it, besides being produced in Russia?