What do EU nationals think of the vaccines mess?

[Frazzled2207]

I’m a committed remainer. But the EU really did mess up last night. More seriously they are not in a good position right now with regards vaccine supply. Lots of anti-Eu posts here right now from committed remainers like me.

Just wondering what EU citizens make of all this and is there any bad feeling towards the UK? Do you think the EU has a right to some of the UK’s vaccine supply? Are people angry at the fact that the UK was able to secure more vaccines more quickly? Or are we coming across as selfish idiots?
Generally curious and am not here to start an argument

Good article, thanks Bailey.

Leaders in Europe are recklessly endangering their own public’s health by using self-serving point-scoring to attack Britain’s coronavirus vaccine rollout, UK health experts have warned. “The views coming out from politicians in Europe are in striking contrast to the scientific view reached by the European regulator,” a former medicines regulator chief said.

This is what I found in your link. It seems that many EU countries are being cautious about AZ vaccine? Is this to attack U.K. Of course it fucking isn't. Do you not think they want vaccines out there ASAP? Why on earth are many U.K. based posters using this as an excuse to criticise EU? It's nothing to do with you any more of course.

They are waiting for further data! Boris doesn't personally give a shit about what he is doling out and seems keen to not stick to the 2nd dose guidelines. He just wants to gain some kind of credibility after the total disaster of deaths and Brexit. This is probably all fine, in medical terms but why is EU so terrible for wanting to check all the data properly, and not on a per batch basis?

Baileys, added risk as in the long delay has not been trialled. It's a medical experiment/clinical trial in practice. No one knows what will happen. The news on AZ sounds positive today but all this is brand new.

What I find storage is the insistence that the gap between first and second dose is now somehow dangerous.

The reason the 2nd dose was set at 3 weeks is because it's the MINIMUM amount of time to establish a large enough response from the immune to the first dose so the second dose has got something to work on .....doh!

That's because we are in a pandemic so they didn't waste time experimenting for longer gaps initially because they are trying to find the MINIMUM amount of time between doses. That's why we have a selection of vaccines miraculously available in such short time.

For the hard of thinking: that doesn't mean it is less safe and doesn't mean it is less effective. Just as the EU's own scientists decided when they approved AZ for ALL adults, older adults included.

This doesn't seem to be very well grasped by the EU region politicians pouring doubt over AZ and placing doubt in minds of world for best value vaccine that can be transported with ease. Appalling, dangerous behaviour on Macron's behalf in a country of vaccine doubters.

Shows how little they know even about fundamental research into vaccinations.... the world's in a hurry, so the gap tested was minimum not maximum amount of time between doses. Longer gap indeed can be better.....

Great link, Bailey.

strange... not storage..

It's because that's how it was trialled! No one can possibly know if there is an effect for delaying that long because no one tested it like that.

The above statement is from Kent Woods, a former chief of both the UK and European Union medicines regulators, told AFP

But that is his opinion - that it's self serving point scoring. No one here gives a shit about scoring points against the U.K. They want to stop variants coming in from elsewhere, and to get their vaccines.

I'm reading this with my mouth open. I feel like we're living in completely different worlds. Why is it wrong for any government to decide that they need more evidence before they offer something to their citizens? If anything if the country I'm in decides on that I would feel that they have my back (they haven't decided to limit it here so far, but considering it's for a limited time period AND healthcare workers, who are mostly below 60/65/70 also need to be vaccinated in the same time period I don't see the big deal if they do - the older citizens get Pfizer/Moderna and the younger get AZ).

And as for @3asAbird saying 'Europe may have a mix if British Brazilian and South African varients for all they know not seen much about genome sequencing over there'...I haven't heard anything about genome sequencing in the UK but I don't assume that that's because it's not being done! More likely as I haven't found it (can confirm that we are doing genome sequencing here, as data is published in newspapers for all to see)

@Floppywin. As you said, the trial was with a 3 week interval, for understandable reasons. But there's no evidence to say that a longer time interval works. Cannot imagine I could get much by my manager in my research saying 'oh I assume it will be fine'. It will all be: I don't care about your opinion! Show me the evidence that a longer time interval is fine'! And it would be reckless for my manager to do anything but that. I don't see what is wrong in sticking to what you have clear evidence for.

I’m just putting the information out there. Good luck to everyone in Europe, hopefully both governments are doing the right thing for their population, hopefully I can visit beautiful Europe again one day.

But it's not "information" in the useful sense, it's someone's opinion. Ursula has a Medical degree and a masters in Epidemiology and Public Health. I would trust her over Boris any day. Slower delivery of vaccines or not. I despair at the EU slagging. U.K. has left now, so what does it matter?

Avondklok - It seems that many EU countries are being cautious about AZ vaccine? Is this to attack U.K. Of course it fucking isn't. Do you not think they want vaccines out there ASAP?

Barababam - Why is it wrong for any government to decide that they need more evidence before they offer something to their citizens? If anything if the country I'm in decides on that I would feel that they have my back

This is from the EMA on the AZ vaccine:

EMA has recommended granting a conditional marketing authorisation for COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca to prevent coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) in people from 18 years of age. This is the third COVID-19 vaccine that EMA has recommended for authorisation.

EMA’s human medicines committee (CHMP) has thoroughly assessed the data on the quality, safety and efficacy of the vaccine and recommended by consensus a formal conditional marketing authorisation be granted by the European Commission. This will assure EU citizens that the vaccine meets EU standards and puts in place the safeguards, controls and obligations to underpin EU-wide vaccination campaigns.

“With this third positive opinion, we have further expanded the arsenal of vaccines available to EU and EEA member states to combat the pandemic and protect their citizens,” said Emer Cooke, Executive Director of EMA. “As in previous cases, the CHMP has rigorously evaluated this vaccine, and the scientific basis of our work underpins our firm commitment to safeguard the health of EU citizens.”

Do you think the EMA does not have EU citizens backs? Do you think their evaluation has not been thorough enough? I'm sure if there was a lack of evidence or scientific back up for over 65s then that would have been a condition of approval surely?

Is there an email couriel doing the rounds

For what it's worth, I used to work for one of the Pharma companies under discussion, my dh still does. I have friends working in QA. They personally don't see the sense in an arbitrary age cut off date with AZ vaccine and would be happy for their parents and grandparents to have it, and some have.

The countries just require some more data.

@Avondklok I thought the Dutch decision to use the AZ vaccine for the healthy adult group had more to do with projected availability of vaccines and logistics than efficacy in the elderly.

I don't know about the Netherlands, but it makes sense to use the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines first on the most vulnerable groups certainly, if there are more of those available, and save the larger roll out of AZ Q2 onwards for everyone else.

Sorry, your nickname made me think you were Dutch!

There was talk that all over 18s would be vaccinated by June. I won't hold my breath now 😂

Some positive news from Israel for uk and eu about phizer.
With shortages and delay 2nd doses may have been a worry.
Seems just 1 dose gives 90% efficacy.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/03/one-pfizerbiontech-jab-gives-90-immunity-from-covid-after-21-days

I'm reading this with my mouth open. I feel like we're living in completely different worlds. Why is it wrong for any government to decide that they need more evidence before they offer something to their citizens? If anything if the country I'm in decides on that I would feel that they have my back (they haven't decided to limit it here so far, but considering it's for a limited time period AND healthcare workers, who are mostly below 60/65/70 also need to be vaccinated in the same time period I don't see the big deal if they do - the older citizens get Pfizer/Moderna and the younger get AZ).

This is how I feel. I'm in a country that has said that they won't vaccinate the over 70s with the AZ vaccine until there is more data. They feel right now that the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines are more effective(that is more, not that the AZ vaccine isn't effective) so for now they feel that for the over 70s this is the safest way to go.

This isn't some kind of vendetta against the UK, this isn't about the UK at all, this is about a country deciding to hold off until they have more data. Nobody is saying that the AZ vaccine isn't safe as some people have said, they are just saying they need more data to see if it is effective enough for the elderly who are more likely to be vulnerable.

The absolute arrogance of the you in UK to think that us EU countries would plan our vaccination programs around some imagined vendetta against the UK, potentially putting our citizens at risk as some fuck you is astonishing.

great news - data analysis report by UEA - Israel previously implied the vaccine was only 50% something after one dose - the UEA analysis of that Israel data has shown in fact 90% effective after one dose.

That doctor all over the news from Israel was a bit premature with his comments to news cameras at the time.

Interestingly, they note that between 1-8 days after vaccination is a time when potentially more likely to become infected and put this down to people becoming more lapse with their social distancing etc. I'd say IME that is true.

@ AloethereI you're wildly missing the point - it is not because of Brexit doh!

It's because EU failed to invest enough at the beginning of pandemic in research and are throwing toys out of pram as they don't have enough vaccines for February. You seem to have missed the news on that - EU been acting like dicks for last week or so.

I think cuteorangeelephant sums it up better. - more a case of reacting to their supplies for Feb being mucked up...

" I thought the Dutch decision to use the AZ vaccine for the healthy adult group had more to do with projected availability of vaccines and logistics than efficacy in the elderly."

Macron is implying it is quasi effective based on nothing at all - dangerous behaviour in a pandemic - but hey if you think Macron's an upstanding great guy, that's your opinion - most people with half a brain can see he is playing very dangerous games and playing into hands of vaccine doubters - who think vaccinations are dangerous.

I'll say again, not because of Brexit, we are discussing Macron's decisions as he is an incompetent infantile President - he is not punishing anyone for Brexit with the vaccine issue you numpty.

However, because Macron heavily leaned on EU to invest in the failed French vaccine they haven't invested anywhere enough in development of vaccines worldwide.

Putting an order in for loads isn't the same as investing in developing them which is why they have supply issues for Feb.

[quote 3asAbird]Some positive news from Israel for uk and eu about phizer.
With shortages and delay 2nd doses may have been a worry.
Seems just 1 dose gives 90% efficacy.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/03/one-pfizerbiontech-jab-gives-90-immunity-from-covid-after-21-days[/quote]
This is great and what scientists had suspected would be the case but of course didn’t have the data at the time.

So. The UK decision to do a single dose vaccination rollout with a 12 week interval has been vindicated despite pressures to do otherwise. I hope this reassures other European countries and of course their leaders.

It is wonderful that transmission is also cut. We have a lot to thank Israel for, and others providing data