What do EU nationals think of the vaccines mess?

[Frazzled2207]

I’m a committed remainer. But the EU really did mess up last night. More seriously they are not in a good position right now with regards vaccine supply. Lots of anti-Eu posts here right now from committed remainers like me.

Just wondering what EU citizens make of all this and is there any bad feeling towards the UK? Do you think the EU has a right to some of the UK’s vaccine supply? Are people angry at the fact that the UK was able to secure more vaccines more quickly? Or are we coming across as selfish idiots?
Generally curious and am not here to start an argument

@HilaryThorpe - all over the world's press today they're running a story from a French hospital saying the staff and capacity are struggling - and frustrated by the slow vaccine role out etc.

Macron said yesterday that the vaccine role out over next few months will do nothing to reduce pressure on hospitals...I linked above to his comments.

Maybe the elderly you know are happy, but a personal opinion is only that - data will give information outside of our own personal experience so opinions can be formed.

As of 26th Jan the attached says France has vaccinated - 1,184,510 - I don't see how they can be anywhere near moving to the over-65s yet. We're at 10million first dose and not at the over 65s until maybe end of Feb/March time probably.

www.independent.co.uk/news/icu-faces-constant-pressure-as-france-waffles-over-lockdown-icu-france-one-patient-hospital-b1796954.html

www.thelocal.fr/20210127/in-numbers-how-the-first-month-of-frances-covid-vaccine-programme-went

@tatutata really enjoyed reading all of your post - thanks for replying.

All politicians need to grow up for sure - hopefully a day of more statesmanlike behaviour may come if we demand and question more.

Floppywin You need to understand that there are regional differences and that UK media are not as reliable as evidence and data. 😊

Here is the Covid Tracker.
covidtracker.fr/
All the regional data are there.

This is from the Heath Authority website showing the roll-out plan for vaccines.
Des personnes âgées en établissements : établissement d'hébergement pour personnes âgées dépendantes (Ehpad), unités de soins de longue durée (USLD), résidences autonomie, résidences services seniors ;
des personnels qui travaillent dans ces établissements lorsqu'ils sont à risque de développer une forme grave de la Covid-19 ;
des professionnels des secteurs de la santé et du médico-social, des pompiers et des aides à domicile âgés de 50 ans et plus et/ou présentant des comorbidités (voir le détail ci-après) depuis le 4 janvier 2021 ;
des personnes handicapées hébergées dans des établissements spécialisés et leurs personnels âgés de 50 ans et plus et/ou présentant des comorbidités ;
des personnes âgées de 75 ans et plus vivant à domicile à partir du 18 janvier 2021 ;
des personnes vulnérables à haut risque à partir du 18 janvier 2021 qui doivent avoir une prescription médicale de leur médecin traitant pour bénéficier de la vaccination sans critère d'âge.

Dans un second temps, la vaccination sera élargie à partir de fin février, début mars 2021 aux personnes âgées de 65 à 74 ans.

Dans un troisième temps, la vaccination sera ouverte à tous à partir du printemps 2021. Elle se poursuivra tout au long de l'année, en commençant par :

les personnes âgées de 50 à 64 ans ;
les professionnels des secteurs essentiels au fonctionnement du pays en période épidémique (sécurité, éducation, alimentaire) ;
les personnes vulnérables et précaires et les professionnels qui les prennent en charge ;
les personnes vivant dans des hébergements confinés ou des lieux clos ;
le reste de la population majeure.

Hope this helps.

Maddy you've read some strange misinformation there. Many vaccines come in 2 or 3 parts, some very common ones almost 2 years apart.

The bullshit published about the gap between jabs is beyond ridiculous and is causing fear and mistrust for no reason whatsoever.

@HilaryThorpe - I do very much like the link, a very nice interactive map of France with information for sure.

However, the list you've posted of the planned schedule I've seen lots of times before.

Those plans role out from beginning of January, the issue is that all vaccine expectations are down for February by quite some numbers (have you seen what Moderna have said?).

I shall wait for an updated vaccine schedule which starts with plans dated from February (revised expectations of vaccines) onwards as there are no details on the amount of people that make up each cohort group listed or how many have been vaccinated from each of the described cohorts to date.

roll out doh! keep saying it wrong...

@Floppywin @Floppywin I find it a very interesting discussion. I don't actually mind the brexit view. I can see why it exists, I just don't agree that that way of thinking gets people what they think it will. The UK will struggle to make money outside the EU, mainly because it was a trading hub for multinationals who wanted access to the bloc. The UK could play the broker across multiple industries.It's a huge benefit to the whole of the UK, and the fact that the North and other regions have been left behind by successive governments is a UK policy failure. The problems caused by globalisation are also surely better addressed internationally. Prevent the profit arbitrage between different subsidiaries, make companies pay taxes where their customers are based. All problems that could have been solved, but they weren't, so people went for what Boris was selling, which in reality was just his ticket to what he wanted (being PM). Still, immigration won't be a problem for long, as the economy will tank over the short term.

I was chatting to a parisian taxi driver in 2017, he asked me for my opinion on Brexit, there i was spouting all this bollocks about how badly it would affect the economy. He said he didn't give two shits about the economy, he wanted to be given his democratic say, and was really impressed that UK politicians were implementing the vote.
I do think it creates corrosive division, but clearly the divisions caused by covid and vaccines make it pale into insignificance!!

Indeed they are down Floppywin; originally the schedule said mid-February for us and as I said upthread, it is now likely to be March. The target for January was 1m and they did 1.5m. Overall, too modest and too slow. Nobody is denying that. What I am objecting to was your suggestion that the government would prioritise younger people at the expense of the elderly. There is no evidence for that.
France is a different country, a different situation and the jingoistic disinformation of the UK press is appalling.

Yes but France won’t use AZ to vaccinate over 65’s, So vaccinating that age is going to be short supply anyway, unless they hurry up and get the Russian vaccine approved.

I was going by French press, not British.

@tatutata - yes I agree with lots you say. I also don't disrespect remainer views as there are valid reasons for decisions on both sides and you make those points well and are very generous - trouble is our remainer establishment do not present that view you described of the UK. There is a self-hatred amongst some of the British establishment and remainers that UK add nothing to anything and are just embarrassing on the world stage. It's as if they don't know world politics is a song and dance the world over and we are not the only clowns in town. Macron is embarrassing - causing vaccine doubt in a pandemic.

I really don't like the remainers who are almost religous in their love of the EU. (I do still worry some don't understand you can love Europe and be entirely against everything the EU stands for). In fact, because of loving Europe you worry about their rights gradually being removed further away from them and could be difficult to return once lost.

The main reason the remainers lost is because they didn't understand what drove Brexit - it isn't racism, in fact it was a new idea to all of us being racist against Europe?! Who heard of that before? Telling us we'd be poorer outside the EU does not sway the EU argument either as it is about self determination and the knowledge that our right to vote in or out is returned fully to us every 4-5 years.

The future is to come over the years ahead and there will be bumps along the way - some businesses will be better setting up in EU zone and some new businesses from other parts of the world will set up in UK.

Overall it will in the end it will be swings and roundabouts, but the ever increasing removal of direct democracy from a sovereign country is not a train journey I would like to be on any longer.

I do have hope the European countries question whether the EU and ever closer union is the only way to create a trading bloc for themselves. I wish European countries nothing but the best, but I don't think the EU is the best (some things good, more things bad - ie. the powers EU may gain over the next 25 years, if not questioned before every closer union).

Message in Belgium tonight is that close contact should be avoided with the vaccinated until at least 2 weeks after they receive their second jab as they can still catch and transmit.

Discussions on whether they should bump students up the list to get the AZ jab, but that's not a popular option.

And reporting about the Irish border and how threats have been made and officials removed.

And people slagging off Ursula should really check her Cv next to that of Boris. Particularly the medical bit of it.

Also discussions on whether EU should make vaccination passports a thing, in order to travel within EU.

@Avondklok Ursula should know better then, than making statements without any medical facts to back it up.

Personally, I can't help but rather like Ursula - this is a disaster and I don't blame her I blame the machinery of the EU - too large, too many interests to check before making a decision.

Yes, she's flailing around under pressure now - but I bet lots have dumped their own failures on her too. It is a lack of confidence in spending the EU money on supporting vaccines that caused that failure most of all - countries needed to be able to make their own decisions. A lot of EU money went into the French vaccine under pressure from Macron.

However, having a medical background isn't what is required for vaccine procurement - two entirely different skill sets.

The reason the UK did well was the appointment of someone with exactly those skills -that appointment was made by UK PM and Kate Bingham did an incredible job. In and out of the role - not a career politician - that's what's needed sometimes - confidence in self determination.

But that's the U.K. take on it surely. I am seeing that the EU has been more cautious not that they have spectacularly fucked up. The AZ issue is what has drawn everyone's attention and there are differing views on what is happening there. Everyone is entirely focussed on U.K. effort, and they are doing well, despite the added risk of leaving such a gap between doses and Brexit seems to be the oxygen behind everyone wanting to slag off the EU. Time will tell I guess.

@Avondklok what added risk? Please back this up with medical evidence?

Finland has decided now to only use the AZ vaccine for under 70s, despite saying earlier they didn't see why they shouldn't use it for the elderly. But it is only a temporary decision until further data comes so I expect they'll use it for health care workers and CEV for now while waiting for more data. I very much doubt healthy working age people not in risk jobs will be getting vaccinated before the elderly, would be good if they decided teachers were a risk job category though.

Walked past my town's vaccination point today, saw one elderly man looking for the way in and a handful of cars. Don't think they're getting much jabs done yet.

I fear all this bad press in Europe about az may decrease people confidence in it and result on less of each nation getting vaccinated .
Sadly I think its more political than science based.
France and Germany cast their views then slowly few more eu countries follow.
Its one way to decrease demand and maybe some eu residents will say well in happy wait for phizer and moderna never wanted az anyway.
also rules out remote possibility of uk giving Ireland some vaccines if they won't be willing to give to their most vulnerable.

Yes the vaccine was developed at a British University but from what I gather thhe British science and academia scene is comprised of international members.
Yes we make it over here but we want make it in factories world wide to share with the world for no profit.
Thats why I feel sad how ugly this has got.
Its a part swedish company too but Sweden is eu and haseent managed the virus that well with their herd immunity approach.
Also shows that lots member states don't have much confidence in their own regulatory body ema as it was approved for all age groups.
Israel will provide fantastic data on phizer and I anticipate due to rate of vaccinations more postive Oxford az will come out of uk in due time.
Let's face it to produce a vaccine let alone several in such short time for a corona virus is nothing short of a miracle..
Small trials tell us some stuff.
But mass vaccination different countries within community tell us so much more and possibly some really good data in countries with high levels of covid like Brazil and UK.
Thats reason norovax is so ahead with their trials and even with new varient so baffled why eu not put an order in on that one.
Its a American company but manufacture in uk.
Its one thing be not keen on Britain another thing to snub a vaccine that comes out of it.
If virus is so prevalent I would rather have 70% than none at all.

I worry as we know how quickly virus mutates we lucky we recognised them all.
Europe may have a mix if British Brazilian and South African varients for all they know not seen much about genome sequencing over there.
It matters because more transmissible so raises the r causing fast spike on cases therefore decreasing the time nations have to act and vaccinate.
The longer countries in restrictions worse effects to peoples finances and the economy too.
8 to 10 weeks seems like long time for eu vulnerable groups to wait for a vaccine.

@Natsku

Finland has decided now to only use the AZ vaccine for under 70s, despite saying earlier they didn't see why they shouldn't use it for the elderly. But it is only a temporary decision until further data comes so I expect they'll use it for health care workers and CEV for now while waiting for more data. I very much doubt healthy working age people not in risk jobs will be getting vaccinated before the elderly, would be good if they decided teachers were a risk job category though.

Walked past my town's vaccination point today, saw one elderly man looking for the way in and a handful of cars. Don't think they're getting much jabs done yet.

Its seems that maybe 1 member states at at a time has its orders to reject az for elderly.

Whats the point of their ema if they don't trust their judgement.
Seems like dirty tricks and playing politics to me.

The real worry about the unsubstantiated claim that AZ is less safe for older people is that it could really impact on take up for the COVAX program. Really unethical imo.

www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/feb/03/coronavirus-live-news-who-warns-vaccine-nationalism-will-spawn-new-covid-mutations?page=with:block-601ac6bf8f08287e5846799f#block-601ac6bf8f08287e5846799f