What do EU nationals think of the vaccines mess?

[Frazzled2207]

I’m a committed remainer. But the EU really did mess up last night. More seriously they are not in a good position right now with regards vaccine supply. Lots of anti-Eu posts here right now from committed remainers like me.

Just wondering what EU citizens make of all this and is there any bad feeling towards the UK? Do you think the EU has a right to some of the UK’s vaccine supply? Are people angry at the fact that the UK was able to secure more vaccines more quickly? Or are we coming across as selfish idiots?
Generally curious and am not here to start an argument

The one learning i think from this pandemic is there seldom any certainly the virus keeps changing and moving.
In an ideal world like any other illness, vaccine or medicine we would know so much more and spend more time trialling and examining the results in normal times but I recognise these are not normal times and we are constantly having to learn on the go and take risks .
When we ordered vaccines in truth we had no idea what would be successful in the end some if it was luck and some was spearing risk by buying froma variety from different countries.
We invested in az developed here
American vaccines
European vaccines

I have to to admit in the case if phizer I was nervous and skeptical that increasing time between 1st and 2nd dose was wise.
With az I felt more postive not sure why it's different kind of vaccine.
The changing situation in the UK the new more transmissible varient helped shaped UK vaccine policy and gave us sense if urgency as cases and deaths been high as its more transmissible meaning the r rate acceleration crept up and our helathcare system was quickly becoming overwhelmed.
So our policy became vaccinate the many not the few and do so as quickly as possible even if they sadly got the virus they would get less ill and not requite hospitalisation.
Its a gamble I guess but one they felt worth taking and they said like flu they can develop boosters to top up immunity 9r adapt to new strains but that will the time right now we on 1st generation vaccines.
My understanding with some newer ones novavax, Johnson and Johnson and valneva is trials took place later with newer varients so their trials results are encouraging..

Israel useful as its one decent sized country using phizer on mass to give us more information.
I expect in time the UK provide similar dat on Oxford az that the whole world will find useful.

My understanding is many different companies did trials in the UK so we were helpful towards the vaccine development.

Its one thing have your own vaccine policy and be cautious.
Ie eu wanting more data.
I'm still perplexed by ema authorised az if they still had genuine doubts.
Its another thing to be openly critical of the UK's policy on vaccines which urdvl and Merkel have been this week saying we rushed and they said this before Christmas too when MHRA authorised phizer.
Just like their spat with az that went public and nasty there was no reason bring UK into this in the same way when justifying their and explaining their own vaccination policy that one again have to mention the UK.

Another is macron comments were dangerous and I imagine the French will be even more skeptical of vaccines now.
If that sadly results in more deaths or the French economy not doing as well then its on his head.
My cousin and his family live in France.
I also have family in USA.

I think over here I UK most just want to be be safe and get their life back as quickly as possible so I'm not critical of government acting at speed at all.
The virus situation is constantly evolving with new strains its hard keep ahead of the virus.

I hope things improve for us all we are neighbours at end of day.
Not anytime soon but can't wait to holiday in Europe again.

www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britain-eu-idUSKBN28C1B9

My understanding was when ema was based in London they worked closely with MHRA sharing staff and information so I wouldn't expect them be wildly different standards.
Obviously we were still eu transition stage last year.

www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-01/eu-seeks-to-boost-credibility-despite-slow-vaccine-rollout/13111656

Germany say they on course vaccinate every adult by September just before elections.

www.thearticle.com/the-british-virus-angela-merkel-phd-should-know-better

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/02/ursula-von-der-leyen-accuses-uk-of-compromising-on-vaccine-safety

@Floppywin yes I agree with you on many of those points. Mainly because I keep an open mind, and most things are not black and white. I'm used to the self flagellation though, Germany does it themselves all the time. According to the press, they've done a terrible job of covid, and aren't their citizens selfish, all the same stuff. I worry about the structure of the EU, and its lack of direct accountability, as much as you do. That was fine when it was just a trading bloc. I don't love it, it's just I thought the best choice was to try to increase the UK influence, rather than decrease it. I was not impressed by the bluster of people like Liam fox pretending that a brexit deal in which we were always going to be the supplicant would be easy. In my professional life, when I'm in a weaker position, I spend a lot of time on being as charming as possible to get what I want. Not pissing people off. I think part of our present difficulties stem from that, some in the EU are personally offended and are being very childish as a result - as indeed often happens in business. Anyway, nice chatting and I'm pretty sure we meet in the middle!

If the AZ vaccine reduces transmission, and its unknown whether pfizer or moderna do, then surely it is better to use AZ for working age population as they are the ones spreading it more?

@Natsku

If the AZ vaccine reduces transmission, and its unknown whether pfizer or moderna do, then surely it is better to use AZ for working age population as they are the ones spreading it more?

There is as little reason/evidence to believe Pfizer and Moderna won't reduce transmission as there was for the AZ.

ALL of this is media hype and ppolitical bollocks! Stoked by fear and the dangers of a little knowledge!

This thread is EU bashing, disguised as EU bashing.
The fact that posters have stopped engaging, or never contributed, might be because they see previously posts being either ignored or misread - case in point @Aloethere never mentioned Brexit.

@SummerBody1

This thread is EU bashing, disguised as EU bashing. The fact that posters have stopped engaging, or never contributed, might be because they see previously posts being either ignored or misread - case in point *@Aloethere* never mentioned Brexit.

Given the weird events recently, and the fact that Brexit changes are now kicking in, what do you expect? Posters are venting, that's what such fora are for!

Of ocurse, if you thing it should be made illegal, a hate crime perhaps, feel free to report it to MNHQ!

This thread is asking EU nationals what they think, then ignoring that or telling them they are wrong.

They are wrong for choosing to use Pfizer for their older patients, they are wrong for not thinking their decisions are based on best thing for their citizens.

They are wrong for not saying that EU is apparently smarting from U.K. choosing to leave EU.

In fact, AZ is playing a reputation as catch up game with Pfizer.

Many clinicians I know believe the Pfizer vaccine is better and given a voice prefer it over AZ.

The reason - initial findings that AZ was only 60% effective versus Pfizer's over 90%

Once that sort of messaging gets out there, it's really difficult to convince people otherwise.

Ah! My apologies. Discussion not required....

If the thread were titled,
'I am so pleased with the UK vaccine rollout. Join in for a chat.' Fine.

But it invites EU posters to give their opinion, on their country's situation, and then posters criticise those opinions - often using dismissive unpleasant language.

Oooh! Are you, as an EU citizen, refusing UK citizens freedom of movement across some threads

Many clinicians I know believe the Pfizer vaccine is better and given a voice prefer it over AZ.

Quite possibly. But I think the AZ vaccine reduces deaths and hospitalisations which is what we desperately need in the UK at the moment. Added to which it's far easier to handle and store and is made in the UK so getting a reliable supply (for the UK) is less problematic. And it's cheaper than the others!

It's up to other countries what they do (IMO), maybe they think it's worth waiting for a higher efficacy vaccine but in the UK we obviously decided we needed to start NOW.

Having said that I don't think our MRHA cut corners particularly, I have no idea how many manhours they put in or how much data they looked at. I get the sense that they are analysing data on a daily basis.

I think the problem is that there aren't that many EU posters living in EU countries on MN!

Which means it becomes a thread about what EU media are printing and that seems to involve a lot of UK bashing.

I agree with that assesment Waspnest

I found this an interesting read and it mirrors my experience of working in EU vs UK. Ime I was not allowed to make decisions until every possible check was done (German firm) whereas we were allowed to apply some common sense once 90% of due diligence was complete in the UK if it meant that we'd miss out on submitting a tender (for example) or not. Completing the final 10% of due diligence (less materiality also) often took the same amount if time as doing the material 90%.

Although I don't think it's right to say that one approach is right or wrong, the vaccine decision is obviously more important than a tender for a construction site.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/55919245

The only thing that matters is that we all get vaccinated soon. Hopefully there will be enough Pfizer and Moderna jabs for the elderly until further AZ data is released meaning EU countries can review their decision.

It doesn't really matter whether the Pfizer vaccine is slightly more effective or otherwise than the AZ one. What matters is that both are safe to administer. Then you need to vaccinate as quickly as you possibly can and maybe later on (end of this year/next year) there can be a discussion about which vaccine is most effective for which age groups. What is needed now is to slow transmission and slow hospital admissions, rather than the highest rate of effectiveness.

I think it's an interesting discussion and for the most part I have been reading rather than posting, however, I do feel the need to jump in when a point is made that it is factually incorrect. Macron and the comment that the AZ vaccine is ''quasi effective' being one. That is not correct and isn't scientifically backed by the EMA.

As far as I'm concerned the EU can run their vaccine procurement and roll out however they wish and until recently it was not anything the U.K. were particularly interested in, we were just focussed on getting our own citizens vaccinated. Unfortunately, instead of the EU taking up its contract issue privately with AZ they made it very public and put it in on everyones radar. People quite rightly were/are a bit taken aback/cross that events played out as they did and are expressing an opinion on that.

Last week's carry on was all very unnecessary.

We all need to vaccinated globally as quickly and efficiently as possible.

@HeyHeyImABeLeaver

I think it's an interesting discussion and for the most part I have been reading rather than posting, however, I do feel the need to jump in when a point is made that it is factually incorrect. Macron and the comment that the AZ vaccine is ''quasi effective' being one. That is not correct and isn't scientifically backed by the EMA.

As far as I'm concerned the EU can run their vaccine procurement and roll out however they wish and until recently it was not anything the U.K. were particularly interested in, we were just focussed on getting our own citizens vaccinated. Unfortunately, instead of the EU taking up its contract issue privately with AZ they made it very public and put it in on everyones radar. People quite rightly were/are a bit taken aback/cross that events played out as they did and are expressing an opinion on that.

Last week's carry on was all very unnecessary.

We all need to vaccinated globally as quickly and efficiently as possible.

HeyHey yes agree with all this

HeyHeyImABeLeaver Yes! All of that! And it's not really surprising that there was some disbelief and pushback against some of the claims that seemed to lack science.

Which is exactly what most posters here do on any thread about vaccines that has misinformation!

@HeyHeyImABeLeaver

I think it's an interesting discussion and for the most part I have been reading rather than posting, however, I do feel the need to jump in when a point is made that it is factually incorrect. Macron and the comment that the AZ vaccine is ''quasi effective' being one. That is not correct and isn't scientifically backed by the EMA.

As far as I'm concerned the EU can run their vaccine procurement and roll out however they wish and until recently it was not anything the U.K. were particularly interested in, we were just focussed on getting our own citizens vaccinated. Unfortunately, instead of the EU taking up its contract issue privately with AZ they made it very public and put it in on everyones radar. People quite rightly were/are a bit taken aback/cross that events played out as they did and are expressing an opinion on that.

Last week's carry on was all very unnecessary.

We all need to vaccinated globally as quickly and efficiently as possible.

I agree with your post before Christmas uk main priority was rolling out vaccines at pace needed. So we were one of the 1st to authorise phizer and were working on authorisation of AZ and Moderna . Yes some pot shot comments from within the eu were made then and the British virus was banned round a few times. I think we kind of ignored it as we too preoccupied with rising rates , new varient and Christmas to take much notice. When phizer said they couldn't deliver what they promised in doses we needed I can't remember uk government kicking off and threatening them with court action. We took pragmatic approach it is what it is. We are where we are we just have to be optimistic and patient and plough on best we can. I honestly think for uk the Oxford az being approved has been a massive game changer and allowed us to vaccinate at speed we have and easily reach the elderly at carehomes where as phizer more suited to mass vaccination centres.

I assume I don't know that uk / usa and Europe have broadly same vulnerable groups they wish to vaccinate first ideally elderly, health workers and cev.
So its not the vaccination groups that controversial its the time between doses thats caused a few raised eye brows.
None of us knew if any of the vaccines stopped transmission or if they be less effective with new varient we hoped for the best and have worked at speed to try and protect as many vulnerable people as we can.

It was the eu that had spat with az over lack of supply and demanded vaccines be sent from eu.
It was eu that have broken the North Ireland 16 protocol.
It was German politician who said he make uk pay and not send phizer then they issues the export/ authorisation ban.
Even now instead cooling matters they still ranting on at the British for authorising vaccines too soon without enough evidence.
What we have done or what we do should have no baring on what they do.
Just perplexed so much drama over they need the az straight away but they don't want to use it for their most vulnerable.
If they want to wait longer that's their perogative but macron actions have undermined confidence in vaccine safety and its a calculated risk that their at risk groups can wait a bit longer until more data available or phizer and moderna up their deliveries to the EU.
It just seems undermine their faith in their own regulatory body the EMA.

I did read yesterday Switzerland hasent authorised Oxford az they want more data.
As its not within EU I wonder what influenced them?
I'm guessing moderna is approved and Johnson and Johnson as they will be manufacturing in Switzerland.

Also my understanding of regulatory process is the information from each company is rolling.
So it may have appeared we approved it fast but we had been looking at rolling data for months before approval.
Same with ema the official asking to approve with az happened 12th Jan yes but they had been sent all the preliminary data to look at months before hand.
If there wasent enough data maybe lie Switzerland they shouldn't have approved az when they did.
I am sure the demand for az within Europe is now less than it was as so much implying its inferior to phizer.

This is fairly damning reading:

www.politico.eu/article/blame-ursula-von-der-leyen-eu-vaccine-debacle/

More cheeringly, the BBC are now reporting that the EU has approved three batches of vaccines for export, one of which is to the UK and the others to Canada.

Yes and this

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55934405

@SkiingIsHeaven

It's my understanding of the whole EU, Ireland, vaccine thing. Please correct me, add something if I’ve missed it but you have to use the analogy I’m using to help my simple mind-

New pizza restaurant opens-

🍕- Who wants 🍕?

🇬🇧- Yep, please, pepperoni shed loads of it!!

🍕- Ok, 🇪🇺, while I’m doing theirs, want anything?

🇪🇺- Yes let us just..... hold! What we having?

🇫🇷-Pepperoni
🇩🇪- Plain cheese
🇬🇷- Anchovies
🇮🇹- mushroom
🇮🇩- pineapple

🇫🇷🇩🇪🇬🇷🇮🇹- Who the f invited Poland? We are not having pineapple you heathens!!

🍕- Well while you decide we’ll crack on with the UK order 👍.

(Some hours later)

🇪🇺- We too shall have pepperoni!

🍕- Great just dealing with the UK start yours ASAP! All ovens fired and were cracking on.

🇪🇺- We have ordered!! You shall deliver to us NOW!

🍕- Well, you can have a few but we really do have an obligation to get the 🇬🇧 theirs.

🇪🇺- Fine, then we shall block the garden path to the 🇬🇧. No more pizza for them until we get ours!!!!

🇫🇷- Who left the side gate open?! 🇮🇪 ffs why haven’t you shut your gate?

🇮🇪- You said we could keep it open so we can still go and see next door and take them stuff. You said it was a good thing.

🇪🇺- We said that to try and strong arm the UK into not leaving!!

🇮🇪- But........

🇪🇺- (Mutes 🇮🇪) Its ok we have the key just lock it anyway.

Sinn Fein- I focken dare yous to touch our gate!!!!

🇪🇺- We’ve talked to the 🇬🇧 and decided NOT to lock the gate. We shall wait for our 🍕 and see if there is a calm rational way to speed up production.

Haha I really love this what a creative lady 🤪

@Waspnest

I think the problem is that there aren't that many EU posters living in EU countries on MN!

Which means it becomes a thread about what EU media are printing and that seems to involve a lot of UK bashing.

But how many posters here are reading EU press in native language versus EU press in English (not sure audience EU English language press is aimed at)

english.elpais.com/society/2021-02-04/spain-is-ruling-out-using-the-astrazeneca-vaccine-on-the-over-80s.html

says aiming to have 80% of over 80s vaccinated by end of March in Spain. Also, that they've so far decided not to use AZ on over 80s but haven't reached a decision on the over 65s - decision imminent. That the AZ that comes through will be used on CEV under 65 and healthcare workers.

As AZ is in fact approved by the EU it is interesting that they're all making their own minds up (I hope) and re-shuffling expectations with the doses coming through seeing as across the board these EU countries will be down - always to be expected with new vaccines to have teething difficulties etc.

I can't see any news yet on France's new schedule which takes into account the reduced supply, only the initial projections from January - they've obviously changed that in the light of now not giving AZ to over 65s so would hope to see some numbers soon on how many people they have injected in each cohort. Has anyone come across details like that, I can only find wish lists of projected and I read they include 1st and 2nd dose within the total number so can't be sure clearly what stage they're at. If one of the EU readers has that information would be interesting to see - as I say the new projected figures based on events leading to February supply.

The article attached does have 80% of over 80s by end of March so that's more specific and based on the new revised numbers for doses received.

@tatutata yes Liam Fox is not a particularly good advocate and not held in high esteem with the public in general here (either side of the debate); agree, it would never really play out well being so cocky about international relations.

It is interesting to hear you say that the Germans have the same self flagellation and sad to hear too. I guess I'm kind of aware of that, but the more projected image received is self-assured - not cocky, but self-assured - which I like in people/a country's political stance.

It would be nice to think countries could feel good about themselves (not blindly, but have some self-confidence and optimism). I hope Macron wasn't heavy handed with the invest in France vaccine etc and then blaming Ursula. I don't believe that one person arrives at the machinery of EU with some advisers and runs the show into the ground. She is a scapegoat IMO - the problem is the EU structures and focus on the "project".

Returning to Liam Fox (sorry!) - I wonder sometimes if that kind of over the top bluster is trying to convince the electorate they should have some confidence in the country after years of being told (by their own self-flagellating establishment etc.) that they're incompetent and have nothing to offer. So hot air - bit like trying to get one of our DC to go and sit an exam that day - build confidence etc. Obviously, how it plays abroad isn't so clever but I think it might be bit more along those lines.

Macron is behaving more like Trump than Trump.... I don't think even he would have inserted vaccine doubt into approved vaccines and thereby telling the UK's elderly they have a psuedo vaccine and are at risk.... Hardly grown up behaviour. It is the words "psuedo" that are so dangerous and Trump like. He is a poor representative for any country during a pandemic, probably more of an embarrassment to see than Fox himself!