Germany saying AZ vaccine only 8% effective in over 65s *MNHQ noting that this story has been widely debunked*

[dbIdb]

What fresh hell is this.

Why, why, why was the Oxford trial/data reporting so sloppy?

How has it come to this??

Interesting thread on twitter from someone who has read the EU’s advance purchase agreement with AZ.

twitter.com/barristershorse/status/1353905785651273728?s=21

In this case it seems like sour grapes...the EU has messed up its vaccine roll out and can't get the supplies it wants so here comes to attacks on the manufacturers. Frankly I am usually a supporter of the EU but this is pathetic...and dangerous propaganda.

@redsquirrelfan

The EU withholding vaccines is setting a very very dangerous precedent. Direct interference with pharma contracts is actually very worrying, and to my knowledge this is the first time it has ever happened

I thought the UK government stopped exports of essential medication last year.

It did. To ensure domestic need was covered in case of production shortages elsewhere in the world due to covid. It is a list of products that are made by other factories / companies outside the uk. I also note having looked at the list that no Covid Vaccine is on the list banned for export. Precisely because the uk is looking to export it. Also there was an EU ban on the export of ventilators and PPE at one point. (note uk wasn't excluded in this as it was still under transition)

However i dont know why anyone is terribly surprised by the politics here. It was inevitable. If you have demand far outstripping production you have a problem. It's not a good look for any government to be exporting essential drugs when you haven't got enough for your own country.

We've known for a few weeks there is a massive problem with pfizer production. We also know that the US has a major advance under ordering problem which is yet to play out. So a major shortage of vaccine was always liable to have massive consequences and there is a significant risk of it hugely affecting supply.

Lots of people don't want to acknowledge this reality because its not optimistic enough for them. Chances are they are in for a rude awakening cos there is a problem with the numbers here.

I'm disgusted by some of it. But not surprised.

As for AZ effectiveness. We will watch it play out. It doesn't escape me that AZ is significantly cheaper and easier to transport than other vaccines. There is commercial reason to try and undermine its credibility. That may be justified or unfounded in scientific terms but at this point its unproven. Especially if this is coming from unnamed sources.

Its concerning but there is more than one potential motivation at play.

A reminder : you can not avoid the politics of vaccination supply, if demand far outstrips production capacity.

Good luck to anyone trying...

Forgetmenot157, the EU have not yet fully approved the AZ and are still going through the data...only Pfizer and Moderna are currently in use in EU. Yes, the EU has been far too slow but they are also dealing with harder to administer vaccines at the moment as these need to be kept at very low temperatures unlike AZ which is a lot easier to administer.

Confirmation of approval is expected on Friday and the rumours are that it will approve it for use on under 65 years. This is where the German story is coming from, as if this is the case the rollout will have to be adapted.

If someone is making bold statements about the efficacy of the vaccines without citing sources or research then it's propaganda.

The EU has made a mess of this, I'm afraid. They were supposed to be buying in loads of the French made Sanofi vaccine but it is not ready.

In other news, the Pfizer vaccine seems to be doing the trick in Israel...

www.timesofisrael.com/israel-sees-60-drop-in-hospitalizations-for-over-60s-in-weeks-after-vaccination/

The German vaccine strategy, that is who gets vaccinated when and where in the next few weeks, was also based heavily on having the AstraZeneca vaccine available as it's easier to transport. Not having it would put a major damper an their plans, so I don't think they have anything to gain by making false allegations.
But then, the claims are not coming from the government (the health minister is refusing to comment without seeing the actual data these claims are based on), it's just an unsubstantiated newspaper report and I have to agree it was in very poor taste to publish it like that at this time as unsubstantiated accusations only cause uncertainty and don't help anybody.

No clear reasons why supply has been reduced?

It has been clearly stated that the current manufacturing base won't be able to supply enough in a timely manner so they are stopping production for 2? weeks to rebuild and increase output.

That seemed clear enough to me!

Sources? Podium talks and all major newspapers

It's not the "EU style" or Germany policy to attack private companies or NGO partners; they are normally super encouraging of private/charity sector collaboration and development, especially of SMEs (anyone who has had to pursue getting grants from EU knows this). Remember Germany is in many ways an economy of very successful highly specialised SMEs. Those policies (attacking private companies) might go down well with British voters (cultural prism, enjoying public figures having a go at influential people) but are frowned upon severely in Germany esp., seen as counter-productive and noisy empty posturing.

If the story progresses to public on-record criticism (which it hasn't), it will be because they truly think there's been deception. EU will crack down hard on dishonesty and any sort of regulatory evasion & wiggling. But at moment just seems like pragmatism that at least some decision-makers are concluding AZ jab not good for age 65+ so vaccine deployment adjusted accordingly. Germans are becoming very technical in their approaching to managing the domestic epidemic.

Story is not over yet.

@ElectraBlue

In this case it seems like sour grapes...the EU has messed up its vaccine roll out and can't get the supplies it wants so here comes to attacks on the manufacturers. Frankly I am usually a supporter of the EU but this is pathetic...and dangerous propaganda.

The EU hasn't got a vaccine rollout, down to member states, it seems the EU can't get supplies (to give to member states) because AZ isn't shipping to them!

If its ok for AZ to divert the EU order to other countries, mainly the UK, then its also ok for the EU to look for alternative suppliers such as Pfizer.

The 8% efficacy claim is worrying and a different issue but i do not think this is some sort of vaccine jealousy propaganda, because all that will lead too is more fuel to the anti vaxxers and that will negatively affect all vaccination programs.

For those two people saying sour grapes due to failure of German Merck vaccine: there are two Mercks in the world and they are entirely separate companies. The failed vaccines were being developed by a US company, not German.

Vaccine minister was on piers Morgan bbc breakfast, saying the report, the 8% is nonsense. I agree. I don't know where this German report is getting their info. But I think it's bullshit.

It's come out last night? Alongside point 2: As Germany and the EU are complaining / trying to stop out supply of Pfizer vaccine?

So loud here this morning so couldn’t hear much

But given interviews with EU spokespeople not highlighting 8% efficacy this was baseless?

If this was a game of Snakes and Ladders then we are currently climbing a ladder whilst the bloc is sliding down a snake.

We have started our vaccination program and it’s ramping up while they are still waiting for their governing body to approve AZ.

We were also able to find a variant that will no doubt prove to be a global mutation and are now suppressing the third peak whilst numbers are starting to climb quickly in Europe. So they really need to start vaccinating very quickly but the supplies aren’t there.

They must be absolutely furious.

@NewLevelsOfTiredness

There is no "EU vaccination rollout program!" Procurement yes, but each country is responsible for its own rollout and some are doing better than others. Here in Denmark we're quite satisfied with the progress.

Try and see it from the EU's point of view though. We've been told we're getting just 40% of our order, and nobody else seems to be affected, and more to the point AZ are not offering a real explanation why. Wouldn't you want the UK government to investigate and make sure you're not being disproportionately screwed in those shoes?

Same here in Sweden. The government expect, at the current rate, to have vaccinated the entire population by June.

So it turns out this is fake news and has been done to try to justify the EU holding us to ransom so they can divert our Pfizer vaccine supply to themselves.

Disgusting.

It’s something a totalitarian state would do.

AstraZeneca have enough capacity to produce 2 million doses per week on average for the UK for the rest of the year, according to an article I read in the FT.

The 8% efficacy claim is worrying

How can it be worrying when it’s not even true?

Same here in Sweden. The government expect, at the current rate, to have vaccinated the entire population by June.

Surely given the tiny population it should be much faster than that?

@justanotherneighinparadise

If this was a game of Snakes and Ladders then we are currently climbing a ladder whilst the bloc is sliding down a snake.

We have started our vaccination program and it’s ramping up while they are still waiting for their governing body to approve AZ.

We were also able to find a variant that will no doubt prove to be a global mutation and are now suppressing the third peak whilst numbers are starting to climb quickly in Europe. So they really need to start vaccinating very quickly but the supplies aren’t there.

They must be absolutely furious.

I prefer to count my chickens once they’ve hatched.

The UK currently has a higher death per population than Germany, France, Spain, etc.

Only worse than Gibraltar (so us), San Marino, Belgium, and Slovenia.

Put that champagne away.

One of my cousins says the rapture is coming and all the unsaved will burn. I don't worry about that because it's not true and everything he thinks is evidence is rubbish. I'm going to take the same approach to wild arsed, unsupported claims like this and go "oh, right, ok then".

In other news, the Pfizer vaccine seems to be doing the trick in Israel...

Quick question. How many Palestinians have they vaccinated?

It is a shame that AstraZeneca does not fully partner with the UK like Pfizer has done with Israel and exchange citizen's data for extra doses of the vaccine to allow all adults in the UK to be vaccinated as soon as possible. It would then mean that questions such as its effectiveness on the over 60s antibody response would be answered more quickly.

If the EU regulator had seriously approved a vaccine that was only 8% effective then they're not doing their job. If it's approved then they're happy with the information. Point one.
Point two. There was a professor of supply chain (or something similar) on the radio this morning. He's had a look at the contracts for AZ within the UK and the EU. The UK had got guaranteed supply provision written into the contracts. He believes we'd probably be paying more per shot for a guaranteed supply of vaccine. The EU contract is solely cost driven. There doesn't seem to be a guaranteed number of vaccines at a given time written into the contract. Which basically means France wants 8 million vaccines. They'll get 8 million vaccines but not necessarily at the rate of 1 million a week or whatever. UK contracts have a clause that says 8 million vaccines at a rate of 1 million delivered a week (the numbers are made up obviously). In return for that the UK government bought additional space in Wales for AZ to 'vial up' the vaccination - that's because the vaccine production wasn't an issue but the ability to get the vaccine in the vials ready for distribution was. So, unusually for the government, they recognised that early on and pumped money into it.

And the EU has asked for notification of exports to non-EU countries, they've not said they are restricting yet.

How can the EU be angry over not getting AZ supplies when they haven’t even approved it? Of course AZ aren’t going to stockpile for them when it’s not approved, it makes more sense for supplies to go to those who can use it now? The EU are angry they have messed up the or own vaccine rollout. I’m a firm remainer, I hate Brexit but I think today is the first day I’m slightly glad we aren’t in the EU at the moment.