Germany saying AZ vaccine only 8% effective in over 65s *MNHQ noting that this story has been widely debunked*

[dbIdb]

What fresh hell is this.

Why, why, why was the Oxford trial/data reporting so sloppy?

How has it come to this??

How can the EU be angry over not getting AZ supplies when they haven’t even approved it? Of course AZ aren’t going to stockpile for them when it’s not approved, it makes more sense for supplies to go to those who can use it now? The EU are angry they have messed up the or own vaccine rollout. I’m a firm remainer, I hate Brexit but I think today is the first day I’m slightly glad we aren’t in the EU at the moment.

I was wondering this too! And I agree with your last sentence as well. I’m so relieved that we’re getting the vaccine rolled out quickly!

@usuallydormant

If AZ are using EU based facilities to make a vaccine but shipping it out to other countries rather than honoring their contract with the EU, should the EU really just sit back and say, oh well

How long does it take to get already existing vaccine producing facilities up and running to ramp up AZ production and circumvent these hold ups? I understand components are being produced all over the world (e.g. Mexico).

Why aren't the EU embarrassed?
At their actions?

They have an agreement with AZ. EU are now concerned whether AZ will meet the supply agreement between AZ and EU. I get that. So do your negotiations behind closed doors.

But where's their back up plan?

But to throw your toys out of the pram. If I can't get it from AZ...... what will I do.... I know .... I'll stop Pfizer sending theirs to GB.

Errr hang on. You can't do that! Or you shouldn't be able to. GB has an agreement with Pfizer. To supply us. Pfizer should adhere to that. Irrespective of what EU thinks.

Will they?
We'll see!

EU will crack down hard on dishonesty and any sort of regulatory evasion & wiggling
how did that work with the VW emissions scandal? Answer, it didn't, it took the USA to uncover it.

I'd prefer to read opinions from scientists in Germany who put their name to comments: mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN29J1KF?__twitter_impression=true.
*The head of Germany's vaccine regulator on Thursday described the success rate of AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccine as excellent, after some Australian scientists voiced scepticism about its efficacy.

Speaking during an online press briefing, the president of Germany's Paul Ehrlich Institute (PEI), Klaus Cichutek, said there had been some debate over the best usage pattern for the vaccine.

"Still, the efficacy remains outstanding and excellent," he said, citing data.*

@Mousehole10

How can the EU be angry over not getting AZ supplies when they haven’t even approved it? Of course AZ aren’t going to stockpile for them when it’s not approved, it makes more sense for supplies to go to those who can use it now? The EU are angry they have messed up the or own vaccine rollout. I’m a firm remainer, I hate Brexit but I think today is the first day I’m slightly glad we aren’t in the EU at the moment.

Its not that AZ are not supplying a vaccine the EU haven't yet approved, its that AZ have said they will be unable to meet the agreed supplies when or/if they do approve. Just 30m out of the pre ordered and pre paid 80m doses.

TBH i think the two bigger stories are why has the EMA approved Pfizer and Moderna quickly but not the AZ vaccine?
and that has the UK govt applied pressure to AZ to limit supplies to the EU in favour of the UK?

exchange citizen's data for extra doses of the vaccine

I'm very glad that we haven't done that. Your personal medical data, once handed over, cannot be reclaimed. I'm pretty sure GDPR stops that any way.

@Mousehole10

How can the EU be angry over not getting AZ supplies when they haven’t even approved it? Of course AZ aren’t going to stockpile for them when it’s not approved, it makes more sense for supplies to go to those who can use it now? The EU are angry they have messed up the or own vaccine rollout. I’m a firm remainer, I hate Brexit but I think today is the first day I’m slightly glad we aren’t in the EU at the moment.

Since last autumn the EU paid more than 300 million to AZ for the development (so no, they did not jump on the bandwagon once it was ready) and production. They had an agreement for a certain number of doses do be delivered in the first quarter. Now that approval seems imminent, AZ - who have taken the EU money all along - suddenly say they can't deliver, but can deliver to other countries without problems. Of course the EU is furious at this breach of contract.

Pfizer should adhere to that.

I don’t know how it works but could the EU potentially introduce legislation to stop them supplying us, even if they wanted to?

What a mess the EU has made of this!

It really is amazing how this story is being used by lots of different people in different ways....

The EU put in orders for lots of different vaccines: 2 billion in fact. It was always pretty likely some of them would not end up being approved and could be donated if not needed.

ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_20_2467

The reports on the 8% came from a German financial paper, with unidentified sources allegedly in the German govt. Irresponsible to print, but is it is not a German/EU plot to get back at the UK and steal your vaccines .

It's not a competition between nations, it is in all our interests for everyone to get vaccinated as soon as is possible, in the most effective ways. Most of the pharma companies (and the scientific teams like at Oxford) are international collaborations, not based on one country's superiority.

@soundofsilence1

It is a shame that AstraZeneca does not fully partner with the UK like Pfizer has done with Israel and exchange citizen's data for extra doses of the vaccine

Mmm..it may be working for Israel but I've read some criticism aimed at their government for exchanging citizen's data for doses (anonymized medical records that is - but still, it may drive an undesirable more risk-prone behaviour to meet vaccination targets in order to supply the committed data)

I'm on the fence on this one

Irresponsible to print

Absolutely! Have they backtracked yet?

@Mousehole10

How can the EU be angry over not getting AZ supplies when they haven’t even approved it? Of course AZ aren’t going to stockpile for them when it’s not approved, it makes more sense for supplies to go to those who can use it now? The EU are angry they have messed up the or own vaccine rollout. I’m a firm remainer, I hate Brexit but I think today is the first day I’m slightly glad we aren’t in the EU at the moment.

Absolutely.

Astra Zeneca have a product for which demand way outstrips supply. Why should they hold on to millions of doses while the EU take their time about granting approval several weeks after Britain, India and other countries did so?

Like you I'm not against the EU, but they messed this up spectacularly. The EU has never been good in a crisis, and this is another example.

@Mousehole10

How can the EU be angry over not getting AZ supplies when they haven’t even approved it? Of course AZ aren’t going to stockpile for them when it’s not approved, it makes more sense for supplies to go to those who can use it now? The EU are angry they have messed up the or own vaccine rollout. I’m a firm remainer, I hate Brexit but I think today is the first day I’m slightly glad we aren’t in the EU at the moment.

The contract was for advanced supply with payment upfront so its fair in that respect. The problem for me is the tone about moral high ground when the EU would have had vaccine in warehouse when it was being rolled out elsewhere.

I have pondered whether the UK could have insisted that AZ prioritised contract wording to favour the uk when funding research. However the suggestion upthread is that the EU wording of the contract is similar to that with CareVac. So unless the uk have also made a purchase with them and insisted on a similar deal which favoured the uk then it does look a lot like the EU may have had a major oversight over contracts which cant be blamed on others to the degree that may be on display here.

It should have been predictable that there would be competition over supply and no guarantee that others wouldn't try and get better contracts by paying more. The EU seem like they have been somewhat naive here. The bitterness is particularly strong as its the UK rather than say a Middle East country that's got the jump, purely because it makes the EU and individual countries look bad to their citizens.

I do find it pretty awful that different countries are getting different prices and priority status, but this is big pharma. (Though it should be noted AZ is doing this on a basis of not making profit... Its doing it for reputation and perhaps for influence...)

So, AZ should be providing 80 million to EU, but are now claiming they only supply 30 million?

Its not that AZ are not supplying a vaccine the EU haven't yet approved, its that AZ have said they will be unable to meet the agreed supplies when or/if they do approve.
Just 30m out of the pre ordered and pre paid 80m doses.
It was clearly announced that the Belgian Astrazeneca partner factory failed QA checks, which affected supply. The contract was also clear that approval dates may affect supply dates. I doubt the EU want faulty vaccines, it's one of those things unfortunately that delays happen when there are errors.

@Lily193

Same here in Sweden. The government expect, at the current rate, to have vaccinated the entire population by June.

Surely given the tiny population it should be much faster than that?

Why? Surely given the tiny population it's obvious we also have a tiny health service (ie the size is relative to the population).

@Oblomov20

So, AZ should be providing 80 million to EU, but are now claiming they only supply 30 million?

For the initial shipment, the total order will be filled. They need a few more weeks to fill the 80m.

Also that twitter thread suggests that this view:

Of course the EU is furious at this breach of contract

May not be as clear cut as it at first seems and that the wording may mean AZ isnt legally in the wrong (though the moral issue is a whole other debate).

WHO were concerned about problems in this area from the word go. It shouldn't come as a shock.

@Lily193

Same here in Sweden. The government expect, at the current rate, to have vaccinated the entire population by June.

Surely given the tiny population it should be much faster than that?

The population of Sweden is about 10 million, so not really 'tiny'.

Also, supplies of vaccine will be in proportion to the population.

God. I thought the endless EU bashing would end after January 1st.

Tedious.

EU bashing?? I mean, maybe you're not pro EU enough RedToothBrush? Maybe try a bit harder?

@MRex

*Its not that AZ are not supplying a vaccine the EU haven't yet approved, its that AZ have said they will be unable to meet the agreed supplies when or/if they do approve. Just 30m out of the pre ordered and pre paid 80m doses.* It was clearly announced that the Belgian Astrazeneca partner factory failed QA checks, which affected supply. The contract was also clear that approval dates may affect supply dates. I doubt the EU want faulty vaccines, it's one of those things unfortunately that delays happen when there are errors.

The UK is apparently getting the bulk of supply from AZ production in Oxfordshire and Staffordshire.

So the location of where there are production issues is also relevant here.

If the EU block export of Pfizer from the EU that may create a headache for Pfizer depending on the UK contract since Pfizer is also made in the US and they may be obliged to still supply to the Uk.

Thinking about it I note that the Trump administration turned down the offer of additional vaccine from Pfizer and the EU instead took up the option. That suggests that a lot of the EU Pfizer supply was due to come not from the EU factory (which is also having supply issues) but the US one anyway. That also means that the UK may get supplies from the US rather than the EU anyway. Depending on how the US handle vaccine shortages... (the US cant make additional orders from pfizer until June because backorders all full)

Its one unholy mess...

@Doomsdayiscoming

Yes, it's usually UK bashing on MN

Refreshing to see a different slant on this thread for a change

It looks like the EMA is not going to approve the AZ vaccine for use in the over 65s in the EU as it has not been sufficiently tested for that age group.
Therefore, the government propaganda machines have to come up with some spin when they have to do a U-turn on their vaccine strategy and possibly begin with vaccinating younger people with the AZ vaccine.
So they start quoting 8% efficacy figures meaning that older people will think, ah well, I wouldn't want that one anyway if it doesn't work with me so I don't mind having to wait longer for the Pfizer vaccine (serious supply shortages of that in Europe...)