Germany saying AZ vaccine only 8% effective in over 65s *MNHQ noting that this story has been widely debunked*

[dbIdb]

What fresh hell is this.

Why, why, why was the Oxford trial/data reporting so sloppy?

How has it come to this??

Eu hasn’t approved the vaccine yet. And are having problems with az as well as Pfizer threatening them not to allow dispatching to other countries unless they are given what was arranged.

The EU have royally screwed up their vaccine rollout and are doing terribly. This seems like trying to paper over the fact that they've failed to order the right amount and can't actually vaccinate people.... "Oh well it doesn't matter the vaccine is crap anyway "

I understand that some would like to see the story substantiated with actual data

Yes actual data would be nice, doh.

EMA 'conditional' approval is essentially the same as our emergency approval.

EMA and MHRA are essentially the same thing at the moment - until very recently they were one organisation, before the spilt during the transition period. But the people who were doing the approvals are the same Ines as we're close colleagues. Same approach, same standards.

EMA approved AZ on 12 January, with no caveat on the over 65s

www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/ema-receives-application-conditional-marketing-authorisation-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca

and I can't find an update elsewhere on the regulators page.

As this is coming from a tabloid, and is unsourced, I am quite sceptical

Also that there really would be 'vaccine wars' especially not this early as production levels settle down. For example, we all know that supply of Pfizer will dip, whiost they are building the increased capacity, but it should catch up and be higher by March. Suspect AZ is having similar temporary measures only.

Do tend to agree about the sour grapes (from the public, not the professionals) that medicines regulation - which was meant to be one of the great stumbling blocks of Brexit - has been shown to be a non-issue

@Fieldofyellowflowers

To be honest, I was expecting other countries to start slagging off each other's vaccines. If Germany don't want the English one then they can make their own.

IS this the response now if someone dares question the Oxford vaccine, go make your own?

I noticed it on an aus thread regarding vaccines as well. Is the Oxford vaccine funded entirely by England?

@Fieldofyellowflowers did you personally have a hand in making it?

I know it's human nature but as a nation we seem to dwell on the negative info rather than the positive stuff.

Lordy that is so true of Brits. The negative navel-gazing is worst for tedium. Us Americans look for positives all the time "can-do"

70% efficacy in under65s is still like a wonderful dream compared to any vaccine we had 12 months ago.

None of the currently approved vaccines (Oxford, Pfizer, Moderna) have been extensively tested on the elderly. The trials were primarily carried out on people under 55. There were some older people but we're talking a small percentage. For Oxford, 18. 8% were between 56 and 70, and only 4% were over 70. Considering the elderly are really the target 'market' if you like, the trials didn't adequately cover that age group, so efficacy is really only now being discovered as it's rolled out.

*I’m not so sure. The EU apparently contributed hundreds of millions of euros to the development of the AZ vaccine and on the cusp of approving it they are now being told that only a third of the vaccine that was promised to be available to them at this point in time will be. And this comes after 4-5 million doses were transferred from the European manufacturing base to the UK last month when our own factories here hit problems.

If this was the other way around people would be up in arms.*

This!

@tobee

It's a massive thing to say though, isn't it? Either way. God knows how it'll get sorted. Presumably more data. And someone backing down. Absolutely loads of over 65s have been having that jab. I've know idea how it divvies up between Pfizer and Oxford.

I was going to say similar.... older people in the UK have been having the AZ vaccine for weeks now. Millions of them will have had it (my FIL has had it) so we will soon know if it is so ineffective albeit after a first dose only.

www.pmlive.com/pharma_news/azs_covid-19_vaccine_proves_promising_in_elderly_participants,_new_data_shows_1357347

"The phase 2 study of the vaccine, developed by Oxford University researchers, included 560 healthy adult volunteers, 160 of which were aged 56-69 and 240 were aged 70 years and older"

I’ve spent the last hour researching this online abs it seems like right now we don’t know. I think we are going to find out very soon enough.

Just seen Vaccines minister on telly - included:

'No one is safe until the whole world is safe" - no place for vaccine nationalism UK is proud to be major contributor to Covax. Also confident that AZ will fulfill all orders, and Pfizer will fulfill all orders.

The EU withholding vaccines is setting a very very dangerous precedent. Direct interference with pharma contracts is actually very worrying, and to my knowledge this is the first time it has ever happened.

Stopping the vaccine being shipped here is a very draconian measure and is now being covered in all major broadsheets.

I don't think the EU are just upset about their failed vaccine rollout, which is now causing riots in some countries, but also the fact the UK appears to be sealing borders and with it all chance of a recovery in the blighted travel sector in the EU.

To say there are some major headaches coming down the track is an understatement.

That last statement isn't true about Pfizer nor Moderna, they were tested heavily on older adults (age 50+). Unless you want to focus on age 85+ maybe, or the ones with the most pre-existing health problems.

Moderna: 7000 + persons age, 25% of those tested were age 65+
Pfizer: 41% of those tested (that 44k persons) were age 56+.

AZ didn't enrol enough older adults, arguably

To all countries:- Come guys! Get it together just on this one! Just stop with your vaccine politicking! It'll benefit us all in the end .

@MadameBlobby

I’m not a U.K. patriot, I’m a European. I’m still a bit cynical that after being hacked off they’re not getting all their vaccine they all of a sudden claim the vaccine is shit.

I agree. They want to block the Pfizer vaccine coming to us and it's easier to justify if they don't approve the AZ vaccine.

Although if they don't approve the AZ vaccine they can't hardly complain about not having supplies of it, can they?

I understood that part of the delay with the AZ vaccine was because they were tweaking it for the new Kent variant.

The EU withholding vaccines is setting a very very dangerous precedent. Direct interference with pharma contracts is actually very worrying, and to my knowledge this is the first time it has ever happened

I thought the UK government stopped exports of essential medication last year.

@dbIdb

Thanks folks, your responses sound more reassuring.

Have also seen the news that the EU are trying to withhold our Pfizer vaccines. Talk about sour grapes!

Why don’t you get the title changed then stating there are misleading reports by unnamed people.

I suspect the EU will roll back this position. It is uncompetitive and plays into the protectionist arguments against the EU. It will play very badly in the US particularly as Pfizer is a US company after all. Could they equally threaten to pull out of the EU for the future?
It does seem childish and has implications for the rest of the world, Asia and Australia who see their deliveries delayed too.
Do they want to piss of joe Biden in his first week in office?!

'that is so true of Brits. The negative navel-gazing is worst for tedium. Us Americans look for positives all the time "can-do"'

Oh please. Can we you not make such generalised slurs?

'Can do' 🙄.

The slower vaccine roll out in Europe is not causing riots!! That's a ridiculous statement. Remember that the AZ vaccine is a lot easier to store, and hence distribute . Also the UK got a headstart by deciding to approve before other countries (not just EU but also US) so it is normal the UK will be ahead. No sour grapes.

The EU paid out hundreds of millions in advance for the development of this vaccine (this investment would have also helped the UK in getting it developed and manufactured so quickly) and all of a sudden AZ have told the EU that they will only be able to deliver on 40% of what has been promised. So far, they haven't come up with clear reasons or evidence as why this is so and the EU not unreasonably want to know where the money and the drugs are. I assume there is suspicion that AZ is giving it to countries willing to pay more. If AZ are using EU based facilities to make a vaccine but shipping it out to other countries rather than honoring their contract with the EU, should the EU really just sit back and say, oh well?

www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/european-commission-warns-astrazeneca-on-covid-19-vaccine-delay-1.4467212

Well, we are vaccinating a lot of over 65 year olds now - so we will soon get an idea of the efficacy.

If this was the case the EU would not have approved it... Embarrassing claims and purely being used as a smokescreen for the eu and their embarrassingly slow vaccine rollout.

There is no "EU vaccination rollout program!" Procurement yes, but each country is responsible for its own rollout and some are doing better than others. Here in Denmark we're quite satisfied with the progress.

Try and see it from the EU's point of view though. We've been told we're getting just 40% of our order, and nobody else seems to be affected, and more to the point AZ are not offering a real explanation why. Wouldn't you want the UK government to investigate and make sure you're not being disproportionately screwed in those shoes?

It sounds as though they are planning to use Pfizer for the over 55s/65s and AZ for the younger population. Hence wanting to hang onto the Pfizer vaccine and not let it through. The leak will probably be there to back up this agenda.