Germany saying AZ vaccine only 8% effective in over 65s *MNHQ noting that this story has been widely debunked*

[dbIdb]

What fresh hell is this.

Why, why, why was the Oxford trial/data reporting so sloppy?

How has it come to this??

twitter.com/jim_reed/status/1353820746875871233?s=19

This seems to refute that with AZ and Oxford Uni saying the data was published in 5 peer reviewed journals (including The Lancet). German sour grapes?

Yes but there are ongoing trials to elicit more data. Hmm. Well we will know more soon.

Does anyone know the breakdown of the 7m vaccines we have delivered so far. Just wondering what proportion is Oxford vs. Pfizer?

Also if our access to Pfizer is blocked can second does of Oxford be used instead?

I have heard that this vaccine is like the flu vaccine. So yes, you can still catch it, but the symptoms will be less and most importantly you won’t die from it. So the infection rate might be there, but the impact is much less.

To be honest, I was expecting other countries to start slagging off each other's vaccines. If Germany don't want the English one then they can make their own.

Apparently you can mix vaccines but only in emergency/special circumstances. For eg supply delay or "patient" doesn't know the vaccine they had. It's not currently licensed to mix I believe. However, Astra Zeneca are doing trials with the Russian Sputnik vaccine to see if that improves efficacy.

@Fieldofyellowflowers

To be honest, I was expecting other countries to start slagging off each other's vaccines. If Germany don't want the English one then they can make their own.

I really hoped that they wouldn't.

As usual it all comes down to money. Although reputation is involved.

I’m not so sure. The EU apparently contributed hundreds of millions of euros to the development of the AZ vaccine and on the cusp of approving it they are now being told that only a third of the vaccine that was promised to be available to them at this point in time will be. And this comes after 4-5 million doses were transferred from the European manufacturing base to the UK last month when our own factories here hit problems.

There are supply issues everywhere, including in the UK; manufacturing cannot keep up with demand. For context, vaccine deliveries have been cut to some parts of England, in my city that means GPs will go from vaccinating an average of 700 people a day to vaccinating 400 a week.

Supply was always going to be an issue, and even as a diehard Remain voter think the EU should stop politicking and accept that. The alternative is they will look like the bad guys in this, interfering with vaccination programmes in non-EU countries smacks of protectionism.

Bild is the German equivalent of The Sun, except worse. The report isn't properly sourced.

I saw the same argument used yesterday to discredit a story in the Daily Express about the French asking the UK to help them bail out Eurostar.
It was branded as 'pure lies by far right wing press with a Brexiter readership, to make it look like the EU is struggling without us.'

The fact that the story was also in the Guardian, the Observer, The Sunday Times and EU Today seemed to have bypassed them completely. Just because something appears in a red-top or a right wing populist newspaper doesn't make it untrue by default.

It was inevitable that there would be supply issues. This is why I was uncomfortable with delaying people’s second doses. How many people are going to be left only partially vaccinated because a second dose is now not available?

Yes but there are possible supply issues.

And then there's possible extremely low efficacy in over 65s.

Although it's in Bild it's also in Handelsblatt a finance paper.

Although they mention government sources, not scientists. Normal for papers not reveal their sources. But not to say scientific unnamed sources?

Whatever the truth it's very murky.

I think the EU was also relying on the French Sanofi vaccine which has hit many problems and won’t be ready now until December.

And the German Merck vaccine which has failed?

@Fieldofyellowflowers

To be honest, I was expecting other countries to start slagging off each other's vaccines. If Germany don't want the English one then they can make their own.

Well, since the Pfizer vaccine was partially developed in Germany and is produced in Belgium, it would be only fair if the EU kept that to make up for the shortfall in the AstraZeneca supply. When Pfizer could deliver less due to remodeling their Belgian plant, it supplied less to both EU countries and the UK. Now AstraZeneca is saying they can't hit their original production targets, so they will deliver less than 40 % of the supply ordered (and already paid for!) by the EU, but the UK supply won't be affected at all? How is that right?

The EU are well and truly fucked off with the UK leaving ( I think we will start a trend and eventually the EU will collapse ).
There was nothing wrong with it till they couldn't get what they wanted.

I know it's human nature but as a nation we seem to dwell on the negative info rather than the positive stuff.

@tobee

Yes but there are possible supply issues.

And then there's possible extremely low efficacy in over 65s.

The first is not a 'possible' it is known. Vaccine manufacturers have stated that they are updating their manufacturing facilities because they can't keep up with demand. Various governments have stated that supply is not keeping up with their ability to vaccinate.

The second it a 'possible', one that is contradicted by peer reviewed scientific findings. Ask yourself: if the AZ vaccine is so ineffective, why would the EU be so keen to use it? I suppose they could target it at younger people, but surely at the moment they will be focusing their vaccination efforts on the most vulnerable so will need a vaccine that works for those groups.

There was nothing wrong with it till they couldn't get what they wanted.

It does rather appear that way....

The Handelsblatt journo says on Twitter....
We have confirmed the story with multiple sources familiar with the German vaccination policy. Our sources, including members of government coalition and experts, spoke on condition of anonymity so we cannot source the story “on the record” nor make public any underlying data.
I understand that some would like to see the story substantiated with actual data. However, this is not an academic preprint but a sourced piece of (political) reporting that tries to shed light on the decision making processes and the obstacles in the race for a Covid vaccine.

It is political - anonymous German government sources leaking to their media knowing they’ll run with it even with no actual evidence to support the claims - why would the ‘sources’ do that? Who benefits, in this moment? (And ‘experts’? Experts in what? German government policy? Likely not immunologists, epidemiologists, or any other kind of medical/research scientists, or they’d have said!)

Leaking this now, prior to any actual announcement from EMA and with no supporting evidence, is just undermining public confidence in vaccinations full stop, in the midst of a pandemic, and that is massively irresponsible, and may cost lives at the end of the day, as it could forseeably lead to individuals refusing the vaccine. Whatever the truth, which will out eventually, this isn’t a good look right now for the German government or media IMO.

It's really appalling if it's not true.
It's massively concerning if it is.

Germany bitter as the Merk vaccine bombed in clinical trials and offered little protection.

Have also seen the news that the EU are trying to withhold our Pfizer vaccines.

You really need new news sources, OP, as do some others on here.

We make enough AZ/Oxford vaccine that our order won't be impacted. The EU have a deal for 80mil doses by march which AZ aren't honouring. If AZ can't justify the reasons to the EU then Brussels may stop exports until they deliver.

I haven't seen it reported in other German newspapers. Bild is a sensationalist pile of crap and the actual 'news' about the vaccine is behind a pay wall. the snipped from the Handelsblatt is clear as mud. I wouldn't read too much into it.

@MusicalTrifleMonkey

I have heard that this vaccine is like the flu vaccine. So yes, you can still catch it, but the symptoms will be less and most importantly you won’t die from it. So the infection rate might be there, but the impact is much less.

All the current vaccines are like that

donquixotedelamancha - it’s wider than that I think. The EU is to require very detailed information as to where any vaccines are now going and threatening to withhold.

This wouldn’t just affect the U.K. Any kind of vaccine protectionism like this is pretty disgusting behaviour ( and I say the same re the U.K. or any other country if the EU’s claims that the U.K. has somehow diverted vaccines to itself).