MIL is an antivaxxer.. and I'm not!

[mummyoftwotinkers]

Help please! My MIL is a fierce antivaxxer and always has been (she's 63 and fit and well). I am 100% pro vaccinations being medically trained and having several friends and family members currently on the front line, exhausted, terrified and stressed about what each day will bring.

She's saying she won't have the covid vaccine because it's 'not safe', 'not tested enough' 'contains metals that are toxic to us' and 'we don't know the side effects yet so she wants to let others try it and get those side effects first before making her decision'.

I am struggling with her selfishness about the whole situation, partly because I don't want her to catch it and give it to us (when restrictions lift- we're not seeing her at the mo), partly because I don't want my kids to give it to her (they go to nursery) and mostly because I cannot comprehend how someone cannot care about our poor healthcare workers having to treat people like this who may end up in hospital just because they 'didn't believe' in the vaccine. That, alongside the people who are ill with other conditions who wont necessarily get a hospital bed because she or other antivaxxers are filling the wards.

What do I do?! She's not eligible for the vaccine yet so I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt to change her mind, but I'm pretty sure that won't happen (my husband only found out he hasn't had the MMR jab when he was at uni and there was a mumps outbreak).

I feel like if she doesn't have the vaccine then I should continue to keep the kids at a distance from her, which I know she will take as me 'punishing her' for her choices (and maybe I am 🤷🏻‍♀️)

I don't want to fall out with her about this but I think this is going to drive a massive wedge in between us, and when our well-being (not just our belief) is on the line, I don't see why I should compromise?

Am I being unreasonable?!

I would stay away as long as hospitals are overwhelmed as it is immensely unfair on HCPs to possibly add more ot their burden. If she remains unvaccinated in the long term then that's not your guilt to carry if she catches it from you.

She's lucky that not vaccinating her DS did not harm him. If he had caught mumps at uni she may not have any DGC at all.

If it were me, I

1. wouldn’t bother trying to persuade her

2. would not have contact until DH and I were vaccinated

3. would allow contact after that if she wanted it, after a discussion about the fact that she was accepting the risk that she might catch it from the DC, who might be infected but asymptomatic.

I don’t think I would worry about the DC catching it from her, as the risk to them is so miniscule.

You are right that no vaccine is 100%, so you and DH could potentially catch it from her after being vaccinated. You could also catch it from the DC who pick it up at school. But think about that for a moment - are you going to stop all contact with everybody, for ever, even after almost everyone is vaccinated, because of the very low probability that you will catch it? Unless you are going to do that, it doesn’t make sense to avoid mil.

We will be making choices in the future depending on their Covid policy. It's going to affect everything

Agree - meeting outdoors in a nice sunny day under the rule of 6 (as you might have done last summer when rates were nice and low and no-one was vaccinated) is such a different and distant prospect to what seems remotely possible on a damp murky January day when the country is at Alert 5 and outings are utilitarian only.

I really don’t care if people are anti-vaxers (unless its something that can stop transmission of deadly illnesses) people are big enough to make their own decisions, however I really hate when anti vaxers try to force their opinion onto people so they dont take vaccines.

Like I said, everyone should be wise enough to do their own research. You can’t force your opinion of vaccine on her, she gets ill, then its on her.

You wouldn't be punishing her to wait until you and the children are vaccinated.
She has the right to refuse, you have the right to avoid as far as possible people who haven't had the vaccine until you have.

Nobody should expect their choice to be respected if they are unwilling to extend the same courtesy

There is no evidence to show that people who are vaccinated won't pass it on nor catch it. My mum is 80 and won't be getting it. She has not had the flu vaccination for years since it made her extremely ill. She had very mild Covid anyway and is as fit as a fiddle.

I'm glad she's not getting it. I won't be getting it either. It's not a magic bullet and it solves nothing. Eat healthily, run a few miles and drink plenty of water. I haven't had the flu nor a stomach bug for 27 years.

@PuzzledObserver

If it were me, I

1. wouldn’t bother trying to persuade her

2. would not have contact until DH and I were vaccinated

3. would allow contact after that if she wanted it, after a discussion about the fact that she was accepting the risk that she might catch it from the DC, who might be infected but asymptomatic.

I don’t think I would worry about the DC catching it from her, as the risk to them is so miniscule.

You are right that no vaccine is 100%, so you and DH could potentially catch it from her after being vaccinated. You could also catch it from the DC who pick it up at school. But think about that for a moment - are you going to stop all contact with everybody, for ever, even after almost everyone is vaccinated, because of the very low probability that you will catch it? Unless you are going to do that, it doesn’t make sense to avoid mil.

Yes we could catch it from the kids, which I why I think her being vaccinated is so important if she wants to see us. She is more likely (from an age perspective) to get sick and hospitalised. As I mentioned in the OP, my main concern is overburdening the already overstretched NHS, and I don't particularly want my two pregnant hospital doctor sisters having to deal with people like that in such an awful environment like they're having to do at the moment. I think it's unfair and, yes I'll say it again, selfish.

So you will use your children as a weapon against your mil to enforce your will upon her?
There is very little risk to your children, the risk is your mil surely she has the right to her own body autonomy.

I think you're perfectly entitled to keep away from her till everyone in the family has been fully vaccinated. If she feels that's punishing her, tough. You will presumably explain your reasoning, and if she doesn't like it, the remedy lies in her hands.

I presume you have had zero contact since this past year? After all none of you have been vaccinated...

I agree that there's no use in saying anything at the moment.

It's possible that as she realizes how her choices are going to constrain her (e.g. in terms of travel), she'll change her mind.

She seems not only personally selfish but also willing to put her family at risk. The fact that your husband didn't know that he hadn't gotten he MMR until there was a mumps outbreak at uni is appalling--not just to make the choice for your child, but not to tell them so that they can protect themselves.

In terms of what to do in the long run, I think you would genuinely be within your rights to say that you won't be able to meet up until she's had the vaccine or until Covid dies down. It's not a permanent separation, but only until it settles to a background disease--with luck another year or so. (No thanks to her, of course.) I realize this is easier said than done, and it will probably poison, or at least color, your relationship. But it's really of her doing.

Your kids have to stay unvaccinated until they hit 16/18. She's made that choice. Choices have consequences.

they [antivaxxers] are relying on the rest of us to get the vaccine as their ticket out of this situation. I agree @Greenknees. Generally speaking the survival of the antivaxxer has largely been assisted by their parents making a different decision too. I’ve met many loudly antivax people who are benefitting from the vaccinations they were given as children which have had no negative outcomes and they continue to benefit from others’ vaccinated status.

As for your MiL @mummyoftwotinkers it’s her decision and I think you’re overthinking the guilt thing re one of you passing Covid to her. I also agree with @WorraLiberty that she doesn’t sound very antivax just rather worried about what side effects it might have so perhaps she’ll have it later? Unless of course, she cherry picks the information and selects the anecdotes about people who “know someone who was really ill, had the vaccine then died the next day. So it must be the vaccine that killed them”.

@Watermama

I presume you have had zero contact since this past year? After all none of you have been vaccinated...

Well that's another story. She keeps asking us to break the rules and see her, which we haven't. We've seen her as and when the rules have permitted it depending on what tier we were in at the time. The point now is that the hospitals are overstretched and they weren't in the summer.

She is entitled to her opinion just as you are to yours. Don’t use blackmail to try and get her to have the same opinion as you.

If she won’t take the vaccine, and she catches Covid, then so what? It’s her choice. I wouldn’t keep the kids away, as it’s not their or your responsibility to protect her when she won’t protect herself.

Whether you agree with her views or not it’s her choice. If she is happy to take the risk that her grandchildren can pass it on to her then again that’s her choice.

@Whatisthisfuckery

It’s up to her whether she has the vaccine or not. It makes no difference to any of you because the vaccine won’t stop people catching or transmitting. If you want to punish her for making decisions about her own body that you don’t agree with by denying her access to her GC then that makes you a twat.

If you have evidence that proves that for sure, please do get in contact with Public Health England as I'm sure they'd really appreciate evidence from someone who has such a prestigious scientific background as yourself, 'whatisthisfuckery'.

What has actually been said is that there is no evidence yet to prove (or disprove) that the vaccine will stop the spread. Most vaccines do stop this, and the hope is that the covid one does the same.

@Daisysflowers

Whether you agree with her views or not it’s her choice. If she is happy to take the risk that her grandchildren can pass it on to her then again that’s her choice.

But her grandchildren, and their mother, also have the choice to decide that they'd rather not carry that responsibility. And indeed that they don't want the risk of her passing the virus on to them.

She can choose not to have the vaccine - just as you can choose not to see her if she hasn't been vaccinated.

What I don’t understand is how are you going to prevent your DC having contact with any other unvaccinated people because there are lots of people who aren’t going to be offered the vaccine for a while and I don’t think children are in the plan at least for the near future. What will you do? Not send them to school? They will encounter other non vaccinated individuals in school, on the street, in shops even once restrictions are lifted.

@Arobase I’m pretty sure the grandmother is not going to be the only person they come into contact with that will not have the vaccine. What about if another relative decided not to have it either is the mother and children going to cut ties with everyone who don’t have? Not leave the house or go to school cause half the class or the teacher hasn’t had it? Of course not.

@U8myufo

What I don’t understand is how are you going to prevent your DC having contact with any other unvaccinated people because there are lots of people who aren’t going to be offered the vaccine for a while and I don’t think children are in the plan at least for the near future. What will you do? Not send them to school? They will encounter other non vaccinated individuals in school, on the street, in shops even once restrictions are lifted.

True, and if the vaccine was open to children they would have it.

But the fact that they will be mingling with other potentially infected kids, and then my MIL, puts her, and then the NHS at risk.

I can't do anything about the people I don't know, but everyone else I know will be running to the vaccine centres as soon as they're called up.

To be clear, if everything calms down, the R number significantly decreases and hospitals go back to normal, obviously I will just have to accept that her beliefs are her beliefs and hope that she doesn't catch it. But think of the 38000 people currently in hospital with covid. Just cos people are getting vaccinated doesn't mean those inpatients will be well and released tomorrow. There are many many weeks and probably months ahead of the hospitals being severely overstretched. When covid is a thing of the past (🤞🏼) of course I won't keep the kids away from MIL. I'm not a 'twat' as previously mentioned by another helpful contributor.

If you get on well with her (as you say), can you get her to enter into a calm debate with you? Ask her to write down all the reasons she is an” anti Vaxer”, and if based on evidence that source. Ask her to allow you a right of reply to come back with debate on each point. Then take your time to look at her sources or concerns and write out a counter argument.
Encourage the back and forth passing of information with arguments and counter arguments, stick to known factors and quote their sources. If she uses dodgy sources give evidence of why they are dodgy ( background of person or links they have)
Hopefully over time you could make a few doubts of her decision creeep in and enough for her to go and look more clearly herself
But, it does mean you need to do your homework too. Find out about how clinical trials work, how these vaccines were developed, what testing was done, how it was achieved so rapidly) the info is out there. Look for it and arm yourself.

There again if she’s stubborn she might just refuse to even debate, in which case, yanbu to isolate from her.