The elephant in the room which is why these measures won’t work.....

[TransplantedScouser]

It’s not shops spreading covid or garden centres or people going on walks........

It’s also largely not down to offices or workplaces or even pubs and restaurants.

Two things :

Schools because children are known infection vectors

And people visiting friends and family

If the government said we’ll keep open the economy but you can’t see your friends and family in private settings then it would probably have a bigger effect

Sadly the latter is impossible to police and you get people saying “why can I go to the pub but not see my mother in her house”

And it’s because friends and family do not socially distance when there is not someone making them. At least in public there are monitors to come extent in the form of external people and staff.

It’s people like my 76 year old mum giving her friend a lift to the supermarket once a week so they are in the same car for over half an hour

Or having my aunt and uncle over to visit - well we sit on separate chairs - yes, in a small living room with the windows closed because you are old and feel cold

Or my friends kids running up to give us a hug when we pass them on the street.

Closing the economy down is a smoke screen because what actually needs to be done is impossible to police

I don't see what more you want the government to do. I've been following the rules and it's frustrating to see people still visiting and meeting up but I don't see how the government can police this

That's why we're not allowed to mix households with elephants, I suppose.

I couldn't agree more with you. Though in fairness hospitals are also in the frame here as a major cause of the spread as well.

But if you believe that many on MN reflect the general population (which incidentally I don't) you will see all the reasons as to why rules and regs don't apply to them.

How many on here were making quite large and highly irresponsible Christmas plans in amongst it all was something to behold.
There are many people who literally think that what they do doesn't matter and just want "the others" to follow all the rules and guidance.

I wish people could just police themselves for the period of time that is necessary to get through this. But it is apparent that they cannot or more accurately will not.

Can I add hospitals?
It is currently estimated that up to a third (up from 25%) of people in hospital with covid, caught it in hospital.

Also two of the three people that I know that have died of covid caught it in hospital. I strongly believe nosocimial infection is the elephant in the room.

funny you should say that, as the two families I know who are all ill with corona, one lot got it from the pub, and the other from working in a garden centre

Schools because children are known infection vectors

So why did Boris announce this lockdown after many schools had been back a day and after private school pupils had started to return to their schools from far flung areas of the UK and globe.

An announcement last week (or even at the weekend) could have prevented all these unnecessary contacts and potential spread.

(BTW I'm not disagreeing with you on your points, just emphasising the craziness of the school situation)

Everyone I know that has caught it has caught it in work all private sector all due to not strictly following the covid secure rules so you are right what goes on behind some office doors or within building sites (particularly inside when they are doing electrical installation and plumbing) is not always covid secure as these are people who I know that have caught it and imagine it’s the same in other workplaces. I’m fortunate to work for the nhs in an office role so mine is very secure but can understand some private companies may not be so strict.

My vulnerable mum got it from a pub. Prior to that she had been looking after my toddler inside the house with secondary school kids.

If it's more transmissable, supermarkets will be a vector, as will hospitals, petrol station kiosks, apartment hallways and lifts and possibly even common airspace between houses (e.g. if you can smell their cooking, their air is your air). Door handles, buttons, pens, an (infected) neighbour's dog or cat jumping or brushing past you, mask adjusting. It's already been called lockdown resistant and that's the problem.

Mostly agree

But retail is rife with it too. Customers won’t distance and less and less are bothering with masks and sanitizer

The family and friends you mention all then come in our stores and spread what they’ve just caught back on!

@PicsInRed

If it's more transmissable, supermarkets will be a vector, as will hospitals, petrol station kiosks, apartment hallways and lifts and possibly even common airspace between houses (e.g. if you can smell their cooking, their air is your air). Door handles, buttons, pens, an (infected) neighbour's dog or cat jumping or brushing past you, mask adjusting. It's already been called lockdown resistant and that's the problem.

This is a bit extreme.

I agree with you, OP. Stopping household mixing is impossible to enforce and there is far too much apathy now.

So why did Boris announce this lockdown after many schools had been back a day and after private school pupils had started to return to their schools from far flung areas of the UK and globe.

An announcement last week (or even at the weekend) could have prevented all these unnecessary contacts and potential spread.
Rishi Sunak said earlier today that Boris Johnson responded decisively to new information.

I believe the Gov. is closing everywhere that is non-essential and that they have some hope of controlling. I'm still surprised that Garden Centres are still open though.

Yes agree OP people seem to have no personal responsibility.

My 70 odd year old mum lives with my brother who works in a supermarket. She doesn’t have any care needs so she can’t form a bubble with anyone else. She does get lonely and I phone her everyday. She had her brother who lives with his four children/young adults (the youngest is 18 and three of them have partners staying more often than not) visiting inside her house on Christmas eve. She has my sister and nieces visiting her regularly indoors (but its ok as they visit when they are out on a walk and only stay for an hour or something. She quite regularly goes out in the car with my sister and nieces to a shop or for a coffee before lockdown and they lie about being in the same household). Similarly my mums next door neighbours both have umpteen visitors in and out the house its like revolving doors.

I haven’t visited my mum indoors for awhile as I am CEV and following the shielding advice and my mum just doesn’t get it.

Why are garden centres open? They really are not essential and even in normal times most people do little gardening in the winter.

It’s also largely not down to offices or workplaces or even pubs and restaurants.
It is. If people don't maintain distances, don't wear masks and don't have the meals or drinks outside. It only takes one family member to then spread it to several members.

Or my friends kids running up to give us a hug when we pass them on the street.
Not that much. It's brief and outside.

It’s people like my 76 year old mum giving her friend a lift to the supermarket once a week so they are in the same car for over half an hour
Or having my aunt and uncle over to visit - well we sit on separate chairs - yes, in a small living room with the windows closed because you are old and feel cold

There's a risk, but not that great if all of them aren't put at risk by younger family members. It would be better if they were encouraged to wear good masks when together, though. But they also need that social aspect.

The lockdown helps prevent people from moving between homes too.

Not that I am happy with how the UK government has carried out.

@TillysMum02

Mostly agree

But retail is rife with it too. Customers won’t distance and less and less are bothering with masks and sanitizer

The family and friends you mention all then come in our stores and spread what they’ve just caught back on!

Three women and two children with one trolley at my local Aldi yesterday. A sign saying 'one person per trolley' is blatantly ignored. I get where a single parent has no option, or a vulnerable person needs assistance, otherwise, we should be in the supermarket on our own. The numbers of multiple shoppers has grown noticeably. Why? Why does it take a whole family to decide on a tin of soup?

DH is considered vulnerable, and has hardly been out this year. We could do what so many other older couples do, and shop together, but we don't. Even if I couldn't drive, he'd take me and wait in the car.

"Rishi Sunak said earlier today that Boris Johnson responded decisively to new information."

That would be a first. I guess he's hardly likely to say "The Unions and the scientists in combination were too strong for us to argue with and Boris finally had to give in" is he.

How do you define 'work'?

Save lives? Well yes it probably is the right decision if it slows down admissions to hospital where the chances of you getting treated (with the newer treatments we know help) and getting oxygen are getting slimmer.

Stop the virus? Maybe yes, maybe no. We still don't know enough about it. it could still just disappear, the next mutations may be less life threatening.

Closing down and vaccines are the only tools we have right now to slow spread/admission to hospital and therefore deaths/long covid.

We could weld people in their houses? How about that?

I think the "bubble" system is open to abuse. Good idea, but some people's bubbles seem to look like this...

*It’s people like my 76 year old mum giving her friend a lift to the supermarket once a week so they are in the same car for over half an hour

Or having my aunt and uncle over to visit - well we sit on separate chairs - yes, in a small living room with the windows closed because you are old and feel cold

Or my friends kids running up to give us a hug when we pass them on the street*

A lot of us have been avoiding these kinds of things for months, so why can't everyone?

SO FRUSTRATING!!!!

Didn't post the first time.

Oops, sorry, ignore.