The elephant in the room which is why these measures won’t work.....

[TransplantedScouser]

It’s not shops spreading covid or garden centres or people going on walks........

It’s also largely not down to offices or workplaces or even pubs and restaurants.

Two things :

Schools because children are known infection vectors

And people visiting friends and family

If the government said we’ll keep open the economy but you can’t see your friends and family in private settings then it would probably have a bigger effect

Sadly the latter is impossible to police and you get people saying “why can I go to the pub but not see my mother in her house”

And it’s because friends and family do not socially distance when there is not someone making them. At least in public there are monitors to come extent in the form of external people and staff.

It’s people like my 76 year old mum giving her friend a lift to the supermarket once a week so they are in the same car for over half an hour

Or having my aunt and uncle over to visit - well we sit on separate chairs - yes, in a small living room with the windows closed because you are old and feel cold

Or my friends kids running up to give us a hug when we pass them on the street.

Closing the economy down is a smoke screen because what actually needs to be done is impossible to police

It’s people like my 76 year old mum giving her friend a lift to the supermarket once a week so they are in the same car for over half an hour

This ^ and then gathering over the rhododendrons at the garden centre - ridiculous! Why keep them open as a draw for older ones who are more vulnerable apparently? I have never seen a gang of unruly youths gathering around the wisteria at my gc, it is ONLY older ones that gather

It makes absolutely no difference if people stand 2 metres or two counties apart it's an airborne virus. Going into a restaurant/ pub/ cafe to "Eat Out To Help Out" or queuing up in a restaurant/ cafe wearing a mask to then remove it when you sit down at a table makes no odds, people are breathing in the air all around them. Contaminated air. It also goes over, under and around perspex screens in super markets and a cough can travel 12 ft over a supermarket aisle. SAGE have been telling our Government what to implement, and what to follow in guidance. Our Government have just done their own thing, too little, too late and cocked up the whole shambolic sad sorry mess. Added to which you've got the Covid stasi blaming everyone for mixing when it makes not a joy of difference.

@newrubylane

All these people coming on here saying 'my mum/brother/friend' got it from X - you don't know that. Unless that was literally the only place they've been, all you know is that contract tracing has linked them and other Coronavirus cases to a location. They might well have been the ones who picked it up elsewhere and took it to the pub or wherever.

It IS obvious where they caught it if they've been in hospitals or care homes! Just heard our neighbour has lost both her mother and father before Christmas. Both were hospital inpatients for different things, both went into hospital covid-free (as per tests on admission), both caught it after a couple of weeks and both died of it.

The elephant in the room is you can't stop society from socialising.

When you go into a shop and 50% of people have no masks. No way do 50% of population have an exemption.

Where I live (not UK) very close to 100% of people in shops wear maks, at my work, schools, health care facilities and also in public transport. They could wear visors. But I haven't seen anyone without a mask where required in ages. Even if some have their noses sticking out, but it's still only a few. And even though some people can be exempt.

UK residents must be a particularly sensitive bunch.

@user1497207191

When you go into a shop and 50% of people have no masks.

I think it's hilarious (well it would be if it weren't so serious) that it's the builders, labourers, scaffolders, roofers, who march into shops etc in groups, without masks, etc. I'd be VERY surprised if every bloke on a construction wagon was genuinely exempt from wearing masks due to health reasons! It's people like that who need to be challenged.

Yes!!!!

Where I live there are currently 3 developments.

I get the rage every time the construction staff take off their dust masks and walk into sandwich shop or Co op unmasked.

Manager said he couldn't challenge them. So I asked them politely why they took off masks to enter shop as clearly not exempt. I did it because we have a higher than average elderly population here and the poor sods looked terrified.

They - obviously - less politely - told me to mind my own.

Not sure if it's why but I emailed the constructuring company's and basically said it wasn't a good advert for their company to have their employees flouting the rules so blatantly without cause. Many of hem now wear masks!

When you go into a shop and 50% of people have no masks. No way do 50% of population have an exemption.

So different here. Pretty much everyone wears one now.

@QueenoftheAir

we worked on this over the lockdown and months and ds can now manage to stay home

Wow! congratulations to you and your DS @itsgettingweird
that sounds like quite an achievement, coming out of very difficult circumstances. Silver linings perhaps? (got to make hte best of a shit situation atm)

Oh definitely. It was catch 22. School caused massive anxiety and when school ended he had time to heal so we could work on other stuff.

Just as well really as he's now online college until at least February whilst I'm still working (both wfh and out of home!)

Do keyworkers kids magically not spread corona?

@NannyGythaOgg
Hurrah, one of most sensible, well put posts I've seen in ages!

Surely the elephant in the room is that nearly everyone's been following the restrictions for months. And they haven't worked. And they never could work.

Any functioning society needs a minimum number of physical interactions between people. I can't understand why this isn't obvious.

[quote movehimintothesun]@NannyGythaOgg
Hurrah, one of most sensible, well put posts I've seen in ages! [/quote]
Sorry, should have tagged original poster @LegoAndLolDolls 😊

Where I live (not UK) very close to 100% of people in shops wear maks, at my work, schools, health care facilities and also in public transport. They could wear visors. But I haven't seen anyone without a mask where required in ages. Even if some have their noses sticking out, but it's still only a few. And even though some people can be exempt.UK residents must be a particularly sensitive bunch

All the whining on here about all these nasty non-mask wearers is a load of nonsense. Where I live in the UK it's 100% compliance. I have only seen two people not wearing one, and they were both members of shop staff so I assume genuinely exempt and not covid-deniers.

@MrsMiaWallis

Do keyworkers kids magically not spread corona?

Oh dear. I assume that you would quite like to eat, have a healthcare service, have your post delivered etc?

So those workers' kids need to be looked after to allow that to happen.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Of course i understand it. But it can no way be described as a full lockdown while they are at school, particularly if students are "disease vectors".

@DeciduousPerennial

Unless they put the army on the streets, what exactly do you want?

Oo yes please

The elephant in the room is the ENORMOUS looming recession, unemployment, suicides, and mental health crisis. Meanwhile, the government is shaking the magic money tree with reckless abandon, knowing that they'll be out of office by the time that reality of dealing with it raises its elephantine head.

And to all those who have been pleading and begging for lockdown and closed schools: are you cracking open the champagne, now that you've got what you wanted, and having a socially-distanced toast (two metres, remember; are your arms long enough?) to an increasingly bleak future, especially for our children?

annevoncleeve all the whining on here about all these nasty non-mask wearers is a load of nonsense. Where I live in the UK it's 100% compliance.

Yes this^^ I cannot think of a time where I didn’t see people wearing a mask in a shop. I think compliance is very high around here. UK here also.

"But retail is rife with it too"

Is it? Evidence of that? Not many people catch it in shops, probably because they're moving around and not staying there long.

I would like to see the Forces being asked to do more especially now but not just in Covid situations. They are a national facility that we do not make enough use of. Not just as a policing option but as a helping one too.

"This ^ and then gathering over the rhododendrons at the garden centre - ridiculous! Why keep them open as a draw for older ones who are more vulnerable apparently? I have never seen a gang of unruly youths gathering around the wisteria at my gc, it is ONLY older ones that gather"

Are the flowers outside though so much, much less risky?
And while youngsters don't gather in garden centres, they gather on the pavements, in the parks, in the bus stops and just about everywhere else as far as I can see.

The elephant in the room isn't that people are incapable of following X Y or Z rule or that any of the rules are pointless.

The elephant in the room is that any strong public health policy needs public trust. Because good public health policies are preventative, based on forecasts of events that haven't happened yet, and necessarily pessimistic. The mark of a great public health policy is that one that avoids a public health crisis - you might never know how bad it could have gotten. Public health policy also requires rules that, when it comes down to it, are largely unenforceable without a much more draconian police/military presence than any of us should be comfortable with.

And we can all pinpoint the EXACT day public trust went out of the window last year. Fucking Cummings.

I personally think the government and at least half the population are suffering from collective madness.

The Government is setting a really bad example by panicing and constantly making U turns, so that people feel that they cannot rely on anything our leaders say.

I have no idea what the average age of death or hospitalisation is with Covid at the moment in Britain, but I think it would be quite useful to include it with the daily figures, as its likely to stem panic. Instead the government, and particularly the narcissists like Gove and the unelected SAGE committee are using it to fuel widespread panic. Which is the last thing you need when thinking of the most sustainable way to fight a serious virus threat.

And lockdowns are sustainable. Neither is there any evidence that they actually work and achieve a signficantly different effect from keeping things open and more minimal measures.

@annevonkleve

Where I live (not UK) very close to 100% of people in shops wear maks, at my work, schools, health care facilities and also in public transport. They could wear visors. But I haven't seen anyone without a mask where required in ages. Even if some have their noses sticking out, but it's still only a few. And even though some people can be exempt.UK residents must be a particularly sensitive bunch

All the whining on here about all these nasty non-mask wearers is a load of nonsense. Where I live in the UK it's 100% compliance. I have only seen two people not wearing one, and they were both members of shop staff so I assume genuinely exempt and not covid-deniers.

Where I live there's generally very high compliance. Other than a few elderly with lanyards and a few others with lanyards (eg my autistic ds but I won't let him in shops with this new strain!) who are clearly exempt.

The rest are all the ones who take off their dust masks and coming 4-5 times a day for a sandwich, can of monster, bag of crisps and then some beers at the end of that day.

I'm not going to deny it gives me the rage as it pure selfishness and I'm alright Jack.

Another issue is multi-generational homes and some people having more than the average 2.4 children.
When you have little 3 bed houses with an elderly nan, an uncle in work, a cousin, 3-4 different aged children in more than one educational setting, plus mum and dad, who also work, it's very easy to see what has helped the spread.
All it takes is the primary school child to be asymptomatic, giving it to their siblings, who go into their schools and spread it. Then an adult finally gets symptoms, and hopefully, but not in every case has a test, but by then they could have been the source of spread to several schools, children, teachers, people on public transport, the places the family work etc.
And let's not forget, not everyone does isolate or get a test even. Either due to language difficulties, fear, financial worries of isolating and potentially losing wages or their job. The police don't exactly go door to door checking people are cooperating with isolation. Then you have elderly people without smart phones so no app.
Hospitals are responsible for quite a high number of transmissions.
I don't personally think shutting pubs first was fair prior to the new lockdown because the number of transmissions stemming from pubs was under 3%.

And for the record before certain posters whinge, I'm not being off with any social group, it was on a discussion on the radio last week about the problem of housing shortages meaning big families are in cramped conditions.