The logistical issue with closing primary schools...

[Jourdain11]

Just want to say at the start that, in saying this, I do not in any way mean to undermine teachers' and school staffs' right to work in a safe environment. But there is a big logistical issue with the closure of primary schools, assuming that childcare arrangements would also be knocked out.

In the spring, a huge number of people were either wfh or furloughed. That is no longer the case to the same extent. Since the rules/guidance now is to "work from home unless you cannot do your job at home", there are many, many more people who are expected to go into work, at least on a part-time schedule.

Which creates a huge issue in terms of primary-aged children doing remote learning from home. Either you end up with a pretty large number of "key worker" or "unable to learn from home" children going into school (which creates issues for staff in terms of providing in-school staffing and online provision simultaneously, and also slightly defeats the point of the entire exercise); or you have thousands of parents having to resign their jobs, take unpaid leave, beg for time off or whatever (which is clearly very far from ideal). Or you end up with parents simply saying, "I pay taxes for my children to be educated in school and it is their right to receive this education" and sending them in anyway.

Seems the only way around this would be either to have a "short, sharp" shutdown with a (for example) 2-week timelimit, which might be more manageable for both parents and school staff. Or to stay open and increase hygiene measures in PSs, or at least strive to make them equal across all schools.

Thoughts?

I don't see why there is talk of all schools being open or closed. There are areas where there are a lot of cases in schools and there are areas where many schools have had none, or one or two, since September. Even in London, some schools have had none or few.

Surely it would be better for schools to react to the numbers, maybe have blanket guidance of 'x cases per 100' or something, and keep parents informed so that they have some warning if numbers are rising.

Just as the areas of country worst affected change over time, so would schools, so that schools that need to be closed early January, might be open again in February with others closing then.

It seems crazy to close schools with no cases, with all the problems that arise, because some schools have a lot.

I was also thinking that! I'm not sure to what extent the formal/informal childcare arrangements continue to be allowed though. Unless I completely misunderstood, they were permitted in the Nov lockdown?

I think you’re still allowed to have a childcare bubble, but that wouldn’t necessarily help in this situation unless the person you bubbled with was able to have your kids for the whole working day, possibly for a number of weeks.

@GrumblyMumblyisnotJumbly

This is about the third thread i’ve put this on but why can’t primaries stay open and temporarily have half the class in AM / half PM to ensure continuity in core teaching while social distancing can actually be achieved. Totally appreciate this doesn’t help those who work out the home but surely better than full closure and helps those expected to wfh while being beneficial to children’s education & wellbeing. That way you replicate the conditions in school from May where bubbles were tighter and smaller (albeit with better weather).

If it was a 2week emergency closure would nurseries / childminders will be expected to close as well? If schooling/colleges are closed surely these settings would need to close too?

Because a full deep clean would need to be preformed of all classrooms and toilets before the afternoon children arrived or it would be pointless! A week on week off rota would be more practical.

If it was a 2week emergency closure would nurseries / childminders will be expected to close as well? If schooling/colleges are closed surely these settings would need to close too?

We are having a 2-week-minimum emergency closure in Scotland and childminders are allowed to stay open to all children, but nurseries and schools can only take keyworker children (with really strict criteria around that: if 2-parent family then both need to be keyworkers, and both need to be required to work out of the home, if anyone's WFH then you don't qualify).

You can also use informal childcare if it's 'essential', and for this they include parents WFH, but you can't have someone in your house to provide it, you have to send your children to their house.

Obviously that only applies to a school closure/rota, not if you have to self isolate.

I do get it is trickier for employers when all schools are shut rather than random bubbles being off.

But equally it would be predictable and they would be able to plan.

For a lot of businesses, it's probably more valuable to be opening and operating normally with some staff off, than closed but having schools open as in lockdown 2.0.

I'm not saying it would be ideal for anyone- I am just saying that there are difficulties with keeping schools open like last term too.

It's only something like 7% of working people who have a primary aged child. For some 'logistics' perspective.

amicissimma the only authority schools have to 'react to the numbers' is to inform PHE, who then tell they that they're not allowed to close.

The problem with 'some schools have no cases' argument is that, without routine testing, we can't possibly know that for sure. So many people, esp children, carry the virus asymptomatically.

I don't think anyone is proposing an indefinite closing of school as happened in March.

TheSunIsStillShining's suggestions are good.

It's one of those things, though.
Children are entitled to an education, but it doesn't have to be provided by the state.
Much of education ceased during the second world war too.
Kids would turn up to a bombed school or told to work in the fields.
In times of disease, famine, war, schooling for kids goes out the window.
I have one in an important year, too.
Maybe we'll just end up going back to siblings caring for each other and latch key kids.

Primary: Two week half term (possibly one week online/worksheets etc). Locally ended up with this in October and it reduced cases.
Maybe in conjunction with a lockdown/tight restrictions?
Secondary: delayed return in Jan for most years, rota for in/home learning (where possible) to allow for practical time/consolidation of work etc.

Same as primary for half term.

Start of Feb is when things will be showing from now and plans can be tightened of necessary.

FWIW, I don't think we will see full closures of primary schools except as an absolute last resort, but I do think in some areas we may see the use of some kind of rota system.

And I do think in tier 4 especially, parents need to be prepared for some kind of staggered start to the term, as has been planned for secondary schools.

What would really help would be if parents would start pressuring the government to pay ANY percentage of schools’ cleaning and supply teaching costs.

Both of these budgets for the year were exceeded by October in my school, and it’s now a case of do what we can afford to do, which is the bare minimum.

I think giving parents a choice of blended learning is the right answer right now. Many parents could keep their children at home.

For those parents whose work or health situations don't give them the choice - they can send their kids.

Completely unable to do this from my point of view, I’m an emergency service worker and can’t just take time off work, even if it is only two weeks. many parents at work in the same situation as me.

They should at least suspend fines and keep places open for those children who can stay at home. Perhaps offering half a day a week for them to take part in PE/ class activities outside.

@latti

All schools need to close until February half term.

Everything possible has been done to keep them open but if they were in a tier, they’d be in tier 10!

Plenty of primary schools have had no positive cases.

It's a pandemic so I don't think we can just say" Schools can't close because of work". I totally understand people's livelyhoods are on the line but surely if Boris closes schools then he will have to say employers will have to be flexible. Otherwise you are saying tough luck school staff if you contract Covid and take it home to your family and children.

That they know of. ONS data is pretty damning for primary now.

@PandemicPavolova

How can we increase hygiene measures for an airborne virus? That spreads via the nose and throat when people speak? Maybe some sort of perspex helmet?

Hand washing is still hugely important!

@christinarossetti19, just as closing schools would require a change of approach, I'm suggesting that giving control to schools could be considered as a different approach.

And if a school has found no cases since September, I would question how many asymptomatic cases there really are, spreading the virus around. Surely someone, an associated parent, teacher, pupil, sibling or visitor would develop symptoms, unless this particular school had a very special strain.

The idea of closing primary schools then sending children to their grandparents every day as a "childcare bubble" is crazy to me. I thought we were supposed to be protecting older people? Not to mention how unfair it would be to expect grandparents to take that on for weeks on end. It's just a throwaway line said by people who want to close schools at any cost - "just use your childcare bubble" or the other classic "just get furloughed".

YANBU OP

I don't think online learning works for most secondaries either. Imagine leaving your 11 year old at home to navigate their online learning and to feed themselves. Then there's the issue of older children getting up to all sorts unsupervised.

We need to vaccinate teachers as a priority and keep kids in the classroom.

Employers have been flexible. That's part of the problem... they've run out of goodwill for working parents.

Are there statistics clearly showing that primary school children are responsible for the big rise in cases though? Surely it is due to so many more factors? I find talk of blanket closures frustrating. Our large primary only had to send one year group home for the last week, no other bubbles affected all term. Why should my DC yet again have to miss out on being at school if there isn't clear evidence primary school children are spreading it (which I have yet to see).

@Kitcat122

It's a pandemic so I don't think we can just say" Schools can't close because of work". I totally understand people's livelyhoods are on the line but surely if Boris closes schools then he will have to say employers will have to be flexible. Otherwise you are saying tough luck school staff if you contract Covid and take it home to your family and children.

I should think he would say 'employers will have to be flexible', but saying that needs to mean something. What are employers being asked to do? What is the compensation they'll be provided for this, what's the legal framework enforcing it? Otherwise it's just wooly words which amount to "tough luck".

@NameChange37836

The guidance around working was no different in April. Everyone was “allowed” to go to work unless they could work from home.

This doesn't work in practice though because wfh was just advisory second time around. So in my case I work for a training provider. First time around - everyone working from home, everything delivered online. Since September, no-one working from home, everything face-to-face, because although it's possible to do the job from home it's just a little bit better face-to-face. So that's what the employer wants. There will be lots of similar work situations. Unless there's a stronger mandatory 'wfh unless literally impossible' message this won't change