The logistical issue with closing primary schools...

[Jourdain11]

Just want to say at the start that, in saying this, I do not in any way mean to undermine teachers' and school staffs' right to work in a safe environment. But there is a big logistical issue with the closure of primary schools, assuming that childcare arrangements would also be knocked out.

In the spring, a huge number of people were either wfh or furloughed. That is no longer the case to the same extent. Since the rules/guidance now is to "work from home unless you cannot do your job at home", there are many, many more people who are expected to go into work, at least on a part-time schedule.

Which creates a huge issue in terms of primary-aged children doing remote learning from home. Either you end up with a pretty large number of "key worker" or "unable to learn from home" children going into school (which creates issues for staff in terms of providing in-school staffing and online provision simultaneously, and also slightly defeats the point of the entire exercise); or you have thousands of parents having to resign their jobs, take unpaid leave, beg for time off or whatever (which is clearly very far from ideal). Or you end up with parents simply saying, "I pay taxes for my children to be educated in school and it is their right to receive this education" and sending them in anyway.

Seems the only way around this would be either to have a "short, sharp" shutdown with a (for example) 2-week timelimit, which might be more manageable for both parents and school staff. Or to stay open and increase hygiene measures in PSs, or at least strive to make them equal across all schools.

Thoughts?

@Jourdain11

I think all that is being proposed is things like staggered starts and possibly rotas- and everyone needs a short term emergency plan for childcare at the moment anyway!

My DC's primary has actually done this all term anyway. It has been an absolute pain in the neck with 3 kids in different year groups tbh, but on the other hand, they didn't have a burst bubble till 2 weeks ago... so maybe it did some good!!

If they've been doing rotas all term they are breaking DfE advice.

By staggered starts, I mean as in secondary, not all children going back on 4th January- rather than Y6 goes in at 9, Y5 goes in at 9.10 sort of thing.

All schools need to close until February half term.

Everything possible has been done to keep them open but if they were in a tier, they’d be in tier 10!

I think that all schools doing 2 weeks at home/online, with the government instruction that anyone who possibly can, absolutely HAS to WFH-to cut down on mixing-should be tried in January.

Not just a woolly message of-‘well, just try to WFH unless your boss is a bit mean, then go in’ I mean, as close to an actual lockdown as possible. No mixing of households at all unless absolutely essential.

@SuperbGorgonzola it's good to read your post. My DH is a Y5 teacher and has very similar views and situation re. live teaching. But he, like you, is concerned that some kids will miss out.

My DC, on the other hand, will be back on the work packs and it's really not a brilliant educational substitute.

@GirlCrush

i think the rest of the public,i.e non parents of primary school kids ,will be shouting very very loudly for them to close!

so many people are losing businesses, jobs,family members and it seems to be stemming from schools continuing to be open.

What often seems to be forgotten is that working parents make up a small proportion of the workforce. It’s an almighty pain in the arse for those working parents but not for everyone.

My school has just over 400 pupils and over a week I would say that 100 adults enter that school for one reason or another. If the schools shut then that is 100 adults not in contact with each other with no PPE of any sort and nothing extra hygiene wise than some hand gel.

@latti

All schools need to close until February half term.

Everything possible has been done to keep them open but if they were in a tier, they’d be in tier 10!

But how is that feasible? I just don't see how it can work!

The guidance on wfh isn't woolly, IMO. But a LOT of people can't do their work from home. I have a friend who does an entirely office-based role - you'd think she could work from home, but actually because of the software they use and certain other factors specific to the role, there is absolutely no way that she can.

I do get why working parents need their kids in school but surely if we don't get on top of this virus more businesses will suffer from the continual lockdowns and lack of footfall and parents will loose their jobs anyway?
If its needed to get it under control a short extension to the Christmas holidays bya couple of weeks may really get things under temporary control and buy us all some time for the vaccine roll out!

@Eccle80

I think whatever the decision it needs to be made now and communicated to both parents and schools. I also think it shouldn’t just be indefinite if they do close, but for a fixed period (for all ages not just primary)

Exactly what I an thinking. I have friends who are key workers and they just can't plan for Jan as they don't know whether to book alternative childcare or not. Remember it's not just schools it's all the wraparound care implications that follows. The last min announcements are frankly not helping anyone...and they're not helping the NHS to cope!

The guidance around working was no different in April. Everyone was “allowed” to go to work unless they could work from home.

It would be useful if the the govt could announce a clear line on this asap to enable schools and families to plan.

I agree that something different needs to happen. Secondary moving online with provision for keyworker, vulnerable, SEN and children with no tech at home on site for period of time. Then part-time or blended learning with a keen eye kept on numbers.

Unfortunately, similar for primary although with a view to getting pupils back on site asap, even if this was 2 days a week or every other week.

Also, compulsory mask wearing from 6 years and up, regular routine diagnostic testing, much broader definition of 'close contacts' to positive cases who should isolate and be tested so the rest of their household knows whether to isolate or not, fewer people on site as much as possible.

I know this is a complete pita for childcare, but what has happened this term with some children having multiple periods of self-isolation, schools being forbidden to close by PHE despite scores of positive cases, endless supply staff and year groups having to close at short notice because of staff shortages isn't an education that anyone of us would want for our children either.

Agree. I'm a non keyworker but I cannot work from home, I'm single as well. I cannot leave a 7 year old at home on his own while I go to work, and quitting work is out of the question as mine is the only income.

I could cope with just a couple of weeks of closure or blended learning as if DS were in school half the week I could at least work half the week. But a full closure for months like last time would push us into poverty and I would end up in debt if I can't pay my bills.

It's true that I could be furloughed but that wouldn't help the company I work for - I was furloughed the first time around but so were most of the other staff as business tanked. We are now very busy again at work so either my colleagues would have to do my job as well as their own which I'm sure they'd resent as it would mean them doing hours of overtime while I sit at home! Or they would have to get rid of me and hire someone who can actually go in and do the job.

I would prefer to see colleges going online and possibly blended learning/online for non exam years at secondary school. Also parents of primary age children who want to keep their children home for now (which I'm sure there are many!) to be supported in doing so and not fined. That would at least mean less pupils in school.

It's all very well saying "everyone needs an emergency childcare plan" but some people just don't have that. I have no one to help with childcare, my parents both work full time themselves.

I do wonder how much the pandemic is given rise to unintentional neglect?

My eldest is 17 so I'm ok but many times I have had to pop out or go somewhere and leave my youngest two with him. It's really frowned on to take kids into a shop for example. I have been scared of verbal abuse so I do wonder if the eldest was younger, if I was desperate, would I still have left them?

More parents will be in the same boat. Its suddenly ok in this pandemic to leave kids at home when it wouldnt have been in 2019

I mean, every parent needs a plan for if their child has to do 10 days self isolation, surely?

There’s a difference from an employer’s perspective though. When people at my work have had to isolate with children, their work has mostly been covered by other people. When everyone with young children is in the same position at the same time it becomes a lot harder.

SarahMused unfortunately, that's how it goes in schools. It's all okay, until suddenly it's not.

Without routine testing of staff and pupils, it's not possible to know whether covid is actually in any environment as so many people carry the virus asymptomatically.

The problem is that ‘key workers’ includes so many people. In the summer (in our area anyway) lots kept the kids at home if they could. However by June so many more were taking up their key worker places. I think if primaries closed now everyone who is a key worker would take their place up. The teachers can’t be in two places at once so those of us who aren’t key workers would end up following twinkl worksheets again.
Also the workforce isn’t nearly divided into key workers and those who can WFH.

‘Everyone needs an emergency childcare plan’ is an absurd thing to say in this context. What on earth could the ‘emergency childcare plan’ be if we are banned from mixing with other households?

Yep - if DH has to go in to school (which he probably will), our three DC will have to go in to their school as key worker children , at least for most days. We haven't any relatives nearby except BiL who is a keyworker, existing childcare arrangements probably wouldn't cover things, etc.

Today the Trust I work for has called on people off shift or on annual leave to return to work to help out with the additional pressure. Everyone has been offered a payment incentive as they are desperate. Christmas brings additional load even not in a Pandemic but this is the first year I have seen an email asking staff to come in when on annual leave.

Sorry wrong thread

It's tricky.

I hope the government isn't going to be asking parents to wfh while simultaneously caring for young kids this time around (assuming their jobs allow for that). I won't be doing that. I had enough in the last lockdown. I'll be taking unpaid leave instead. I feel really, really sorry for those parents for whom that isn't an option for financial reasons. And those who lose their jobs because their employers, having been tolerant last year, have finally had enough.

We're going to see a lot more young children living in poverty .

Yes, 'key worker children' are still lots of children, but fewer than there are in school at the moment.

@bookworm14

‘Everyone needs an emergency childcare plan’ is an absurd thing to say in this context. What on earth could the ‘emergency childcare plan’ be if we are banned from mixing with other households?

I was also thinking that! I'm not sure to what extent the formal/informal childcare arrangements continue to be allowed though. Unless I completely misunderstood, they were permitted in the Nov lockdown?

This is about the third thread i’ve put this on but why can’t primaries stay open and temporarily have half the class in AM / half PM to ensure continuity in core teaching while social distancing can actually be achieved. Totally appreciate this doesn’t help those who work out the home but surely better than full closure and helps those expected to wfh while being beneficial to children’s education & wellbeing. That way you replicate the conditions in school from May where bubbles were tighter and smaller (albeit with better weather).

If it was a 2week emergency closure would nurseries / childminders will be expected to close as well? If schooling/colleges are closed surely these settings would need to close too?

Some facts for discussion.

1. In the spring, a huge number of people were either wfh or furloughed. That is no longer the case to the same extent.

Re: furlough, that is actually the opposite. Now there are more ppl on furlough than in March/April/May. At the moment it's around 10m ppl.

1. Either you end up with a pretty large number of "key worker" or "unable to learn from home" children going into school...

There are about 3.5m working mums. About 1.5m are FT, rest are part time. So if we assume that FT working mums need childcare than compared to the around 4m primary aged children --> there will be about a fourth/fifth of them in. Which is a huge reduction!

1. Just being able to keep the kid home as there is a parent to supervise does not equal being able to teach them. There may be other kids, parent not up to teaching anything, etc....

I actually would twist it a bit and say that key worker/need to work and really far behind kids should attend f2f. The rest of the kids who are "average" can get by and will catch up next year. They actually don't learn that much in primary that they can't catch up. They will miss things - like making a tudor house from cornflake box, but let's be fair: they'll live.

1. As for core competencies: even the really small ones one be behind that much. In many other countries kids start school at age 6/7 and learn to read/write in about 6-10 months.

@bookworm14

‘Everyone needs an emergency childcare plan’ is an absurd thing to say in this context. What on earth could the ‘emergency childcare plan’ be if we are banned from mixing with other households?

I thought childcare bubbles were a thing, even in tier 4?

www.gov.uk/guidance/making-a-childcare-bubble-with-another-household