The logistical issue with closing primary schools...

[Jourdain11]

Just want to say at the start that, in saying this, I do not in any way mean to undermine teachers' and school staffs' right to work in a safe environment. But there is a big logistical issue with the closure of primary schools, assuming that childcare arrangements would also be knocked out.

In the spring, a huge number of people were either wfh or furloughed. That is no longer the case to the same extent. Since the rules/guidance now is to "work from home unless you cannot do your job at home", there are many, many more people who are expected to go into work, at least on a part-time schedule.

Which creates a huge issue in terms of primary-aged children doing remote learning from home. Either you end up with a pretty large number of "key worker" or "unable to learn from home" children going into school (which creates issues for staff in terms of providing in-school staffing and online provision simultaneously, and also slightly defeats the point of the entire exercise); or you have thousands of parents having to resign their jobs, take unpaid leave, beg for time off or whatever (which is clearly very far from ideal). Or you end up with parents simply saying, "I pay taxes for my children to be educated in school and it is their right to receive this education" and sending them in anyway.

Seems the only way around this would be either to have a "short, sharp" shutdown with a (for example) 2-week timelimit, which might be more manageable for both parents and school staff. Or to stay open and increase hygiene measures in PSs, or at least strive to make them equal across all schools.

Thoughts?

@psychomath

And also it's not about deaths. It's about the fact that about 40% of the people who become infected/ill then develop long covid.

I swear every time someone quotes the percentage of people who develop 'long covid' it gets higher. How would you define long covid, and where are you getting 40% from?

Quite! As far as I can see it can range from having a mild headache for a couple of weeks, to having post-viral fatigue, to having cardiac issues. But I feel like it is not responsible to go, "Oooh, Long Covid" at people just to scare them into submission. For many, if not most, Covid is a mild illness. That is just a fact.

As a parent, of course I don't want my children to be sick. As the wife of a teacher, I don't want my husband to get sick either. And, as someone who has had an aggressive form of leukaemia and have been on chemo since spring, I don't want to pick up any illness from them. But I'm not more worried about catching Covid than I am any other illness!

People go on about how it's only 1.5m who are working parents on young children, so it's not an economically or politically significant group for anyone to care too much about if we struggle.

The flip side of that is that it is a relatively small percentage of employees who will be asking for some flexibility if schools close. We can but hope.

For me, as the parent of a Y4 and a pre-schooler, with a police officer DH and an almost f/t job myself, the absolutely ludicrous thing is that should schools or childcare close, I'm somehow expected to do both my job and the childcare at the same time - as if we're not in the middle of an unprecedented global pandemic

A short term closure, which seems most likely, scares me most as there will understandably only be keyworker childcare for those with two parents out of the house, so WFH parents will have to juggle again.

The onus is on the government to remind the employers to be a little fucking flexible and understanding but I don't have high hopes of that. My firm has been great for the past 9 months but I think they've reached their limit now.

Im a KS1 teacher with my own kids in Y2 and y6. I pray that primaries will shut. Yes of course children need an education, but teachers lives are just put to the bottom of the pecking order. We have no PPE, we mix in close contact with the children and therefore their families through a ripple affect. We're not prioritised for a vaccine. It's just unfair. The profession is not cared for at all.

Why the heck did the get rid of old tier education system which meant areas or school could adapt learning if cases were high?

You know I done all sorts since having children.

Worked full time after baby no1
Faced lots discrimination due being on maternity with 1 company so left.
Worked for another company but area manager expect retail managers live in work theres no work life balance became too difficult to do it around husband better paid job, not see much of each other.
Nursery fees were more than mortgage.
So after child 2 became sahm not through choice.

Since then over year had few part time positions evenings low pay pin money.
Even before the pandemic let's face it employing mothers waeent hugely attractive even i shirty jobs in retail shelf stacking lots wanted zero hours fully flexible.
We don't have any family nearby and my close freinds work themselves 1 in education 1 nhs labs ect.

In March got worried about money as knew non essential retail shut so got temp job supermarket evenings.
So home Schools 2 primary age kids as well as juggled toddler.
Teenager managed online learning just fine and face timed her mates.
Husband got furloughed 7 weeks he got a taste of how hard juggling them all is.
My son could gone in as he was ehcp but because siblings at home he didn't want to.

Since non essential reopened June my husband been working so many hours.
Got let go by supermarket in August miss the money don't miss the job and the juggling as I was up at 6am with toddler. Attempting teaching at 9am
Making lunch and chucking tea in slowcooker quick tidy before working 6-11.

Since sept 2/3 schools had cases and 2 children had 2 weeks isolating so not sure how I juggle that with job.
The toddler misses playgroups theres nothing.
The parks seem overcrowded to me
Hi suggested I delay preschool start and I couldn't face another 4th bubble and paying fees for her to be off right now.
Hopefully she can start Easter.
The only thing she does do is 45min preschool dance which was cancelled nov lockdown.

The last lockdown husbands was expected work on half pay only non management were furloughed and this seems be case in Welsh stores and stores in tier 2.
We used up all savings.
We took mortgage break at the start.
I haven't attempted find another part time job yet as not sure how juggle it unless I get nights and don't sleep at all.
We have lost around 2k salary from lockdown 2 compared to same 2 pay periods last year we taken a hit.
So nervous if we go tier 4 or lockdown.
I would rather schools shut down.
Cant keep expecting small businesses and same employees take the financial hit.
Having no food on table and stressed parents won't help child's mental health.

Universal credit is shit maybe we need a basic income.
I honestly think everyone needs to repeat a year and just do basics between now and Sept keep things ticking over.

They lied schools were bottom pile for testing.
Bottom of pile for vaccines.
Mass gatherings in poorly ventilated rooms with no masks.
We can't compare ourselves other countries we been shit.
The dfe are shit liers
Putting teachers and medically vulnerable families and children at significant risk.
We have large classes and schools.
Other countries closes schools and wear masks in class from age 6.

Its clear from ons both primary and secondary saw massive rise in driving infections which has spread to other age groups.
This new variemt is really worrying as its mutated possibly be more harmful to kids.

I think we all need to look at it from a different perspective. Children's education has been prioritised during the second half of 2020. Measures have been applied to businesses and communities to try and get the pandemic under some sort of control without having to close schools. The government will have looked at what a tolerable death rate would be - literally weighing up those deaths against the need for children to be in school. The whole country has made major sacrifices for our children's education, but it isn't working. If they close schools, it will be because there is literally no choice in the matter. The best and only thing we can do is to try to do everything to minimise transmission so schools are able to open.

So last time the list of keyworkers was long and extensive and vulnerable children were meant to be in.

However, many schools had a fraction of the children attending that they had originally expected and many schools, nurseries, preschools closed and people were put off sending their kids to hubs where there was no actual teaching (very unfair to keyworker parents and vulnerable kids). Some of the schools I know actively discouraged children who would have been eligible from coming in. Many SEN children have been really let down.

I think this time there would be much more uptake of school places and so the online learning for those at home becomes even more difficult.

There is big resistance to school closures because it was badly handled last time. It is a myth that primary school children can learn on their own from home with no supervision. The same applies to lots of secondary school children too.

@frazzledquaver

I think we all need to look at it from a different perspective. Children's education has been prioritised during the second half of 2020. Measures have been applied to businesses and communities to try and get the pandemic under some sort of control without having to close schools. The government will have looked at what a tolerable death rate would be - literally weighing up those deaths against the need for children to be in school. The whole country has made major sacrifices for our children's education, but it isn't working. If they close schools, it will be because there is literally no choice in the matter. The best and only thing we can do is to try to do everything to minimise transmission so schools are able to open.

Good post. Mumsnet is a bit of an echo chamber for parents - if you read the comments under the red top papers there's a lot of anger about the leisure and hospitality sector being sacrificed to prop up schools. They feel like they've done enough and it feels like people on here don't get that. I'd like to see lower numbers before school as normal again - in all honesty that's probably a month with only key workers and then rotas (hopefully not cherrypicked year groups again.)

@3asAbird respect to you and your experience and flexibility. You know where it's at!

The trouble is if you have an office based job you can probably WFH and muddle through, if you have a job in a factory/warehouse/retail you can't work if the primary schools close and they are jobs that are unlikely to pay you for not being able to go in, and families with lowest incomes get hit the hardest.
We are both frontline keyworkers and having no nursery provision last time was a nightmare yet we cannot be furloughed , this time of nursery closes my mum has been made redundant so would be able to help. We are fortunate (she isn't!). Also bring public sector and unionised we have certain financial protections, lots of people don't.
It's very easy to say well you need to make plans for childcare when you don't work in face to face minimum wage jobs, where you don't get paid if you don't go in and you're living part check to pay check and still barely making ends meet.
Surely close universities, colleges, secondary schools first they can all look after themselves. Primary should be absolutely last resort and government need to dictate how employers need to support those parents.

The thing is, I believe primary schools will end up closing if no measures are taken. I teach in a Tier 4 area. In Sept we had an isolated case of one child positive in one year group, the bubble was closed and it didn’t spread.

However in the last week of term we got two cases of what must be the new variant. The positive results have been coming in over the holidays - there are now 35 staff and children across three year groups positive.

If it spreads like this in primary schools, they will end up closing due to no staff. All staff will be having weekly tests after the holidays as well, this will surely identify more asymptomatic cases and lead to more self-isolation.

I am a parent to a six year old and a three year old. I want schools open. I will struggle if I have to teach remotely as my three year old is vulnerable to Covid and his medical team do not want him in childcare. But I’m also scared of catching this new variant at work and passing it on to him.

The argument about teachers being at risk is void as far as I'm concerned there are many many of us working face to face with riskier cohorts of the public without PPE and there's no hope in hell we will be shut down or you'd all be in trouble. It should only be about transmission rates

@frazzledquaver

I think we all need to look at it from a different perspective. Children's education has been prioritised during the second half of 2020. Measures have been applied to businesses and communities to try and get the pandemic under some sort of control without having to close schools. The government will have looked at what a tolerable death rate would be - literally weighing up those deaths against the need for children to be in school. The whole country has made major sacrifices for our children's education, but it isn't working. If they close schools, it will be because there is literally no choice in the matter. The best and only thing we can do is to try to do everything to minimise transmission so schools are able to open.

I don't entirely disagree about the sacrifices of other sectors in order for schools to stay open, but my yr5 DD could go out for lunch in a restaurant before she was allowed back to school, in fact there was a period of time where she was allowed to do almost anything except go to school, so I don't think it's true that education has been prioritised for the second half of the year. It's been prioritised for 4 months, the same length of time that it was 'closed' for most children. I agree it's an impossible balancing act though. I feel desperately sorry for the hospitality sector, who have born the brunt of sector closures along with entertainment, but in terms of 'priority', anywhere outside areas of approval local restrictions or the original tier 3 was open from the beginning of July until the November lockdown. It really is awful though, and I know there are no easy answers.

@KarlKennedysDurianFruit

The argument about teachers being at risk is void as far as I'm concerned there are many many of us working face to face with riskier cohorts of the public without PPE and there's no hope in hell we will be shut down or you'd all be in trouble. It should only be about transmission rates

Really? Which sectors are they? I imagine there's lots of people here who'd just love it if you could give some actual examples of people working in large groups without PPE. If you had the latest ONS occupational case / hospitalisation data as well we'd all live to see that's. If you can't post links then jog on.

I'm in Scotland and have had to apply for keyworker status. If we don't get that, then not sure what we will do as I have to be at work - January is our busiest time of year.

It's all very well saying employers need to be understanding, but when they are working towards a government deadline then they need staff in doing their jobs.

Karl.Kennedy please tell me what jobs are similar or riskier, except NHS?

Before we broke up I had spent 7 weeks in a small room with 32 adolescents in tier 4.I have windows that only open an inch. I am required to sit alongside them to read, to teach in close groups. They breathe on my all day. I eat with them. I wipe down tables. When a lad on the front row sneezed, it went all over my maskless face. Then I am required to physically touch and mark 96 books that they have touched every evening. They have no PPE, I have no PPE. We had already had 2 cases before the break. I am ill in bed now trying to organise a test for myself. As I have been literally nowhere apart from school and Lidl (which has better protection and is more spacious than my classroom with less people in it) odds are If I have it, so will my class.

Please tell me which other profession is exposed as much as primary teachers, who wear no PPE? And cannot socially distance? The carer that comes in for my mother is well protected. The firm my brother works for (in a practical manufacturing job) gives him good Ppe and social distancing. My partner works in the public sector providing a public service and he is protected. My GP was like a spaceman in PPE when I went for my flu jab. But I, as a clinically vulnerable primary teacher, get a spray for my table. 1 bottle a term. I don't even have a working sink in my classroom or windows that open all the way.

I am sick of people minimising what a risk schools are.

@phlebasconsidered

Karl.Kennedy please tell me what jobs are similar or riskier, except NHS?

Before we broke up I had spent 7 weeks in a small room with 32 adolescents in tier 4.I have windows that only open an inch. I am required to sit alongside them to read, to teach in close groups. They breathe on my all day. I eat with them. I wipe down tables. When a lad on the front row sneezed, it went all over my maskless face. Then I am required to physically touch and mark 96 books that they have touched every evening. They have no PPE, I have no PPE. We had already had 2 cases before the break. I am ill in bed now trying to organise a test for myself. As I have been literally nowhere apart from school and Lidl (which has better protection and is more spacious than my classroom with less people in it) odds are If I have it, so will my class.

Please tell me which other profession is exposed as much as primary teachers, who wear no PPE? And cannot socially distance? The carer that comes in for my mother is well protected. The firm my brother works for (in a practical manufacturing job) gives him good Ppe and social distancing. My partner works in the public sector providing a public service and he is protected. My GP was like a spaceman in PPE when I went for my flu jab. But I, as a clinically vulnerable primary teacher, get a spray for my table. 1 bottle a term. I don't even have a working sink in my classroom or windows that open all the way.

I am sick of people minimising what a risk schools are.

Hear hear

NHS jobs are protected with PPE. They have also moved many services online and vastly reduced their face to face contact so as only to see an absolute minimum of patients. I'd be surprised if many of them saw 30 a day with a mask, never mind without.

I am not a key worker. I do have to keep working and cannot see how I would be able to do that with two children at home. I have probably exhausted the goodwill of my employer with the previous 6 months of kids being at home. Come what may they need to be in school.

@phlebasconsidered prisons, police, probation services.

@phlebasconsidered working with people who not only actively disregard any regulations, but also regularly spit in your face, or you have to physically apprehend/detain, potting is still happening. All with no PPE

[quote TheSunIsStillShining]@Elvesaremagic
I like your calm and logical reasoning. And that you actually offer an alternative - a potential solution :) We need parents to want to work together with schools/teachers to make it work.

To everyone who says peer interaction is so needed: you do know that we are in the midst of a pandemic? Your kid's "socialization" needs do not trump other's health/well being. And especially small kids are way more resilient than given credit for. A kid in GCSE/A-levle year has a lot more to lose than a 6 year old by not seeing his/her friends for a few months.

Wish people could put it in perspective.[/quote]
Have you seen Ofsted's report about the effects of the last school closures?

Its not a competition over which is the riskiest job. When it comes to essential services there will always be a riskiest job that just has to be done for the greater good. The issues are has the government taken all the mitigation it could. Theres no need to make jobs extra risky or increase community transmission as much as possible. Masks could easily be worn in schools. Perspex screens could easily be put up in schools. Hepa air filters could easily be put in. Other countries have done this. Many schools could have made use of additional building but were told not to. Others wanted to go online for a short burst due to the new strain but were prevented from doing so.
I dont know much about policing and i am sorry if the government is making your role riskier than it needs to be too. I hope you get the easy mitigations that are being blocked also.

@Ylvamoon

If you were to remove the ‘I need to work factor’ - a major part of this discussion but let’s pretend if schools closed the government signed blank cheques to cover parents’ wages - does anyone actually WANT to send their children into schools knowing that the lack of social distancing in schools is what is currently fuelling the outbreak?

Yes. School is so much more than just learning to read, write and to do basic maths.
But nobody seems to be interested in the social and physiological aspect of school.
I was on furlough while schools where closed. I could provide 75% of the education. The 25% that I could not provide where being with other children, learning through play / group work, having discussion amongst peers on a subject, ...
These 25% are important for children's development and sadly is very difficult (In some cases impossible) to catch up on. We should avoid closing schools for prolonged periods of time.

This. I am not even faintly worried about DD catching Covid. She’s a healthy child and it’s a mild illness for her age group. I am very worried about her having no human contact except DH and me. She was wretched during the summer, and a different child when she was allowed back to school in September. She’s ten, at that age your social world shouldn’t be limited to your parents!

People do understand that this is about our capacity to handle the dead and dying as well as the long term sick, right? That schools are going to be the last thing to close and that if they do it is because we are utterly fucked with them open? It's not about whether your child is healthy or not. Society is sacrificing everything, including lives, in order that schools stay open. It's not a question of whether you are more worried about your child getting poorly, or having to miss some school. Your view is completely irrelevant. The government has prioritised schools in the last six months and will only close them when they have no other options. Better to accept it and plan for it than to fight it. I find explaining the bigger picture helps my kids as I don't think children are intrinsically selfish.

I agree that police do a risky job and often need to be very close and physical. But in terms of close contact with many people, no. They have much, much less contact, as do the other professions you mention. The virus isn't circulating there as much as in schools, as evidenced by the flu and covid surveillance reports.