The logistical issue with closing primary schools...

[Jourdain11]

Just want to say at the start that, in saying this, I do not in any way mean to undermine teachers' and school staffs' right to work in a safe environment. But there is a big logistical issue with the closure of primary schools, assuming that childcare arrangements would also be knocked out.

In the spring, a huge number of people were either wfh or furloughed. That is no longer the case to the same extent. Since the rules/guidance now is to "work from home unless you cannot do your job at home", there are many, many more people who are expected to go into work, at least on a part-time schedule.

Which creates a huge issue in terms of primary-aged children doing remote learning from home. Either you end up with a pretty large number of "key worker" or "unable to learn from home" children going into school (which creates issues for staff in terms of providing in-school staffing and online provision simultaneously, and also slightly defeats the point of the entire exercise); or you have thousands of parents having to resign their jobs, take unpaid leave, beg for time off or whatever (which is clearly very far from ideal). Or you end up with parents simply saying, "I pay taxes for my children to be educated in school and it is their right to receive this education" and sending them in anyway.

Seems the only way around this would be either to have a "short, sharp" shutdown with a (for example) 2-week timelimit, which might be more manageable for both parents and school staff. Or to stay open and increase hygiene measures in PSs, or at least strive to make them equal across all schools.

Thoughts?

@MillieEpple The issues are has the government taken all the mitigation it could. Theres no need to make jobs extra risky or increase community transmission as much as possible. Masks could easily be worn in schools. Perspex screens could easily be put up in schools. Hepa air filters could easily be put in. Other countries have done this. Many schools could have made use of additional building but were told not to.

This is a really helpful post thank you.

It is really not constructive when posts are accusatory parents v teachers and vice versa. Some posts are insulting suggesting parents don’t care about the health of teachers or are simply trying to palm off our children for childcare.

The problem is that the Government have insisted schools operate largely as normal (other than wearing masks moving around secondary campus) Taking the useful suggestions above what could be done to make facilities/premises safer? How can classes be safer? How can we reduce numbers of contacts but maintain some face to face teaching for all pupils at primary? What are other countries doing? How can primary schools be made safer without resorting to such a drastic measure as full closure throughout the country?

Cases were beginning to dip after the Nov lockdown even with schools fully open should it have been a more gradual reopening of services in December?

I just don’t get why mask wearing (which is required in nearly all other sectors) is actively not recommended in classrooms in the DfE schools guidance?! They even state it should NOT happen as it interferes with teaching and learning.

@Fedup21 the DfE stance on masks flies in the face of all other Government health messaging.

@frazzledquaver

I think we all need to look at it from a different perspective. Children's education has been prioritised during the second half of 2020. Measures have been applied to businesses and communities to try and get the pandemic under some sort of control without having to close schools. The government will have looked at what a tolerable death rate would be - literally weighing up those deaths against the need for children to be in school. The whole country has made major sacrifices for our children's education, but it isn't working. If they close schools, it will be because there is literally no choice in the matter. The best and only thing we can do is to try to do everything to minimise transmission so schools are able to open.

This.

Nobody is saying closing schools is an easy or convenient option but cases are rocketing and schools are pretty much the only thing left.

Almost everything has been sacrificed for education which would be much more palatable if it was working - but it isn't. It will be an unpopular decision amongst working parents and I do sympathise with the problems it will create (we have a young child and both work) but can anyone suggest a better solution?

I agree with frazzledquaver. They don’t care about your child being wretched in lockdown. Move on. Plan ahead. @MinesAPintOfTea came up with some ideas for keeping schools open (although I think too late to save January). I am going to work on the basis that schools will be closed in January. I would suggest that school could provide lists of vulnerable children to social services to allow them to monitor them/provide food. Similarly, medical services should already be aware of children with medical issues, including mental health. Taking this away from teachers would allow them to concentrate on providing suitable online material (not necessarily Zoom!). I would be pushing the government to provide furlough money for ONE parent of any child under the age of eleven so they can (if they want) support their child’s learning/be at home to supervise them. Secondary school children have to be more independent. Whilst this is going on, put measures into place so schools are actually safer when children return.

The debate of should we/shouldn't we open schools in January seems to be becoming ever more abstract tbh.

I've just received my daily covid messager message from littleowl1's site.

Cases in my London borough have doubled this past week - we're not (yet) one of the highest though.

If schools are instructed to return in January as they were before the closed in December, it's abundantly obvious that many either won't be able to due to staff shortages, or that they'll be open for a week or so then have to shut for the same, or that they'll stagger on being officially 'open' but with some year groups closures and children having to self-isolate multiple times.

And that's not even factoring in the moral wrongs of expecting school staff to work in these workplace conditions that would be unlawful in any other sector.

And in terms of areas of the country where rates aren't so high... well, we could open schools and just wait until rates sky rocket there (it won't be long, this new strain seems to be extremely effective at spreading among children). Unless there are some dramatic changes eg vaccination roll out, part-time schooling, routine testing with proper isolation for close contacts immediately, mandatory mask wearing, significant funding for cleaning and supply staff, it is absolutely certain that these high rates will spread across the country.

It's not even clear that those changes would be enough at this point in time tbh.

I think it helps to understand the government’s stance on this by thinking of it in terms of individual vs. systemic effects.

The government is not concerned about risks to individual teachers. Neither is it concerned about individual parents losing their jobs and homes. I agree it has thrown teachers individually under the bus by failing to make schools safe. This is because it doesn’t care about individual teachers. While teachers are higher risk than children, still only a very small proportion have been hospitalised with Covid. Although teachers testing positive/as close contacts and having to isolate has proved a bigger issue. I realise this is no comfort to teachers forced to work in unsafe environments, but it explains why the government re-opened schools in September.

The government is, I suspect, concerned about the economic impact of a lack of childcare for working parents. Especially low-income parents who largely cannot work from home. Destitute families are expensive. When parents lose their jobs and homes, the government cannot simply chuck derisory single person benefits at them. The whole family has to be housed in temporary accommodation (which is very expensive) and supported. Your average low-income family goes from being a small net contributor to society (paying a small amount of tax etc.) or a small cost to society (universal credit, childcare subsidies etc.) to being a huge cost to society. And not just an immediate cost...also in terms of the social issues caused by deprivation later on and the difficulty in parents re-entering the workforce. A large part of the reason the government re-opened school was, I suspect, to avoid these costs. To put it bluntly, unemployed parents are much more expensive than unemployed single people, and that expense continues for much longer.

And let's be clear, schools closing is not a problem that only affects a small proportion of parents. The vast majority of parents work (around 92% of fathers and 75% of mothers). Almost 3/4 of working mothers during the pandemic were forced to cut their hours due to lack of childcare. Almost half of those made redundant or expecting to be made redundant cited lack of childcare as a factor.

Why is the government backtracking now? Having closed schools to avoid this systemic issue, it is now facing another systemic issue – schools as one major factor in the present out-of-control Covid spread. It still doesn’t care about individual teachers but it reckons that schools are helping to drive up infection rates to a level where hospitals may struggle to cope. And this systemic effect is becoming so pronounced that it is starting to outweigh the economic factors which, in the government's view, meant schools should be re-opened.

So it’s a question of “least worst” evil. Closing schools may be the “least worst” evil. But let’s not pretend the consequences will be limited to some minor inconvenience to parents who will just have to muddle through. It will lead to parents cutting hours and quitting their jobs, parent redundancies, increased child poverty etc. Many of these effects have already materialised. It will also impede workplace equality as mothers are the ones who are largely taking the hit. For everyone (not only parents), it will mean increased taxes to pay a bigger benefits bill and plug the hole in taxation caused by parents losing or quitting their jobs.

There are valid arguments for schools shutting. But the counter-arguments are not (as many have argued here) without merit. From a personal perspective, my son’s nursery school closing won’t leave us reliant on benefits or at risk of losing our home (for which I am incredibly thankful). But it will lead to me taking unpaid time off or resigning. I will then pay much less in tax. If that scenario is replicated up and down the country, we will all be in trouble soon.

I genuinely think they are going to open schools as normal with no changes even in light of the new strains. As a disabled parent I am terrified and not sleeping .

@Beebityboo

I genuinely think they are going to open schools as normal with no changes even in light of the new strains. As a disabled parent I am terrified and not sleeping .

Don't send your child in, if you are that worried? You have adequate grounds to argue it and I don't think schools and LEAs have the time to kick off over it at the moment.

[quote KarlKennedysDurianFruit]@phlebasconsidered prisons, police, probation services.[/quote]
In all of those professions, their guidance from the government is to wear PPE, at least. I have posted screen shots of government guidance for prison and probation staff and also for police.

I have also posted the guidance for schools in England, to show you the stark contrast in telling staff wearing masks should be avoided in classrooms and the reasons behind it.

That’s why teachers mention their lack of PPE. Not to belittle other professions who also have it hard but to highlight just how appallingly this government have been treating them and why teachers may be worried about working in those conditions.

Maybe if teachers had been given the choice for masks (and screens if possible in Secondary) then maybe fewer children and staff would have had to self isolate, fewer schools would have closed because they had no other choice, lorry drivers wouldn’t have had to spend Christmas Day in their lorry cabs and maybe we wouldn’t be having this discussion on Mumsnet.

DH and I work in those professions we do not wear masks on duty

Yes, it is hard to move on from looking at it from an individual perspective. It takes some adjusting to realise no one really cares about you, the individual, and the ‘greater good’ is moveable and not always your ‘good’. I think parents of primary school children will feel a shift as they have been supported so far.

The guidance says where possible, it isn't possible in a lot of circumstances and it's widely discouraged

@KarlKennedysDurianFruit

The guidance says where possible, it isn't possible in a lot of circumstances and it's widely discouraged

It at least says what not do if not possible in the same paragraph. Teachers would prefer that to be fair. My BiL is a policeman and has been working a lot at home and also said on Zoom this Christmas that he wears a mask most of the time when not wfh. This is probably an issue with different areas (he is Met) as I know teachers in Scotland had their guidance changed to allow masks in classrooms. Even if not, it shows there is a varied application of the guidance and I am appalled you are actively discouraged from wearing masks and I really feel for you and your DH. However, you don’t get teachers saying ‘the police and prison staff etc should just put up and shut up like you have done. If you wanted to campaign for better conditions and needed support from your management to enforce the govt guidelines, we would support you in that.

@KarlKennedysDurianFruit
You have the right to wear masks and you allow people to ‘discourage’ you from doing so? By taking that option, you are probably helping to spread the virus. No one with any sense is admiring you for the stance you are taking. Rather than trying to drag school staff down to your level, try to fight for better conditions in your working environment and take the ones which are offered to you already. Many of my state school colleagues are not allowed to wear masks. I am lucky as I am allowed. You are lucky too.

@KarlKennedysDurianFruit - would you feel safer doing your very difficult job if community rates were lower because transmission had been controlled more in other environments.

@BustopherPonsonbyJones. I agree. Both teachers and parents continue to have trouble adapting to the idea that the government/society doesn't care about them on an individual level.

For teachers - stop malingering and get back to work. No PPE/unsafe schools? Shut up, do your jobs and stop moaning!

For parents - bloody well look after your own kids for a change, rather than expecting "childcare" (even if you pay for it). Oh, you can't work as well? Talk to your employer. Employers just have to be "tolerant". Oh, they're not tolerant? Lose your job, default on your mortgage/rent and watch your kids go without. And it's your fault because they're your kids and responsibility, you know.

From reading this thread, you get the idea that neither group (teachers/parents) cares much about the problems facing the other group either - each is demanding sympathy while belittling the problems faced by the other group. Although of course, they're not mutually exclusive.

@cherrycola742

Secondary schools where children don't need parents home with them should go online. Primary should start a week later & then be blended learning for 2 weeks.

And are you going to provide internet & laptops for all secondary children to access learning online? A local school has about 1300 students & over half do not have laptops at home, and around 1/4 only have internet via a mobile phone, and not unlimited either! In other households it’s asking which of the 5 children get to use the family computer today? It might be ok for private schools & those in naice areas but it isn’t feasible in inner city areas, more rural areas without fast broadband, or to be honest many areas of the uk!

@MillieEpple that was my original point that schools should close due to transmission rates not to specifically protect teachers

It's really possible to wear masks for a lot of what DH in particular does, no time to stop and put one on, impedes breathing when running etc. I'm more senior so have much less contact with offenders, I really feel for my practitioners though

I do think teachers should be able to discuss their working conditions and what can be done to make those safer without having to take working non-teacher parents into account in every post. It isn’t the job of teachers to make decisions about their jobs based on other people’s employers.

At the same time, it would be nice if working parents could discuss the logistical issues of primary school closures, as an issue in and of itself.

@GoldenOmber

I do think teachers should be able to discuss their working conditions and what can be done to make those safer without having to take working non-teacher parents into account in every post. It isn’t the job of teachers to make decisions about their jobs based on other people’s employers.

At the same time, it would be nice if working parents could discuss the logistical issues of primary school closures, as an issue in and of itself.

This is a great post. There will be elements of compromise whatever happens.

@GoldenOmber. Good post. I for one don't think teachers should be working in unsafe conditions. If that means schools have to close because they cannot be made safe in any other way, then the next issue is how to solve parents' childcare problems. If there is no solution apart from parents stopping work, the question then becomes - who should suffer the financial loss? Should it be families even if that leads to financial destitution for some children?

The conversation still seems to be around closing/not closing schools rather than the government trying to make them safe.

Why isn’t the first thing they are doing is telling all staff and pupils to wear masks unless exempt and thinking how this can be sensibly implemented (ie when/how to safely remove them)?

How would those parents who don’t want schools to close next month, feel about pupils/staff wearing masks in the classroom to reduce transmission?

@GoldenOmber

I do think teachers should be able to discuss their working conditions and what can be done to make those safer without having to take working non-teacher parents into account in every post. It isn’t the job of teachers to make decisions about their jobs based on other people’s employers.

At the same time, it would be nice if working parents could discuss the logistical issues of primary school closures, as an issue in and of itself.

And that was supposed to be the purpose of this thread! But sadly it's gone the way of the others.

I'm absolutely not saying that teachers don't matter, they should just suck it up, or whatever. What I am saying is that there has to be a definite, set-in-stone plan. Either a short shut-down, with a set end-date (problematic for some, but hopefully better than a lockdown that just runs and runs). Or extra protections in school - whatever form they may take. Or week on, week off (or similar), which is not ideal for parents or teachers or kids, but would at least mean that the risk is lowered and that everyone has accessed the same amount of learning when they go back to FT.

It's an issue which statistically should affect 3/4 of families who have a child/children in PS, so the logistics are worth discussing.