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The logistical issue with closing primary schools...

515 replies

Jourdain11 · 26/12/2020 17:13

Just want to say at the start that, in saying this, I do not in any way mean to undermine teachers' and school staffs' right to work in a safe environment. But there is a big logistical issue with the closure of primary schools, assuming that childcare arrangements would also be knocked out.

In the spring, a huge number of people were either wfh or furloughed. That is no longer the case to the same extent. Since the rules/guidance now is to "work from home unless you cannot do your job at home", there are many, many more people who are expected to go into work, at least on a part-time schedule.

Which creates a huge issue in terms of primary-aged children doing remote learning from home. Either you end up with a pretty large number of "key worker" or "unable to learn from home" children going into school (which creates issues for staff in terms of providing in-school staffing and online provision simultaneously, and also slightly defeats the point of the entire exercise); or you have thousands of parents having to resign their jobs, take unpaid leave, beg for time off or whatever (which is clearly very far from ideal). Or you end up with parents simply saying, "I pay taxes for my children to be educated in school and it is their right to receive this education" and sending them in anyway.

Seems the only way around this would be either to have a "short, sharp" shutdown with a (for example) 2-week timelimit, which might be more manageable for both parents and school staff. Or to stay open and increase hygiene measures in PSs, or at least strive to make them equal across all schools.

Thoughts?

OP posts:
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Jourdain11 · 26/12/2020 23:42

@Kitcat122

We are in a pandemic. We can moan all we like and we all have "poor me" stories. Everyone is affected by Covid, be it illness, loss, childcare problems, money worries, isolation and loneliness. But we have to come together as a society and do what is needed to lower the numbers of this horrible virus. A bit of of humanity wouldn't be go amiss on mn at the moment regarding these school threads. We are all mums. If the numbers show schools need to close then so be it. Let's just do it!!
I didn't say I/my family are more unfortunate than anyone else. I know that actually we are more fortunate than many. I was just interested to look at this from the point of the pressing logistical issues which will face many parents (the difficulty for those who have to be in the workplace, the difficulty of wfh while also keeping an eye on young kids) and think what can be done to make it workable. Yes, we will as a family have an issue if the primaries close, particularly if it is indefinite. I still think that, if it needs to happen, a short extension of the holiday is best, to break transmissions. But I also see that this will still be very difficult for many, some more so than others.
OP posts:
DamnYouAutocucumber · 26/12/2020 23:51

In my school I am aware of many people who've had sleepovers, parties, car share and assume that as the children are together all day it makes no difference what they do the rest of the time. Sadly closing schools is probably the only thing which makes a dent in those attitudes.

We have vulnerable teachers at our school, but also a lot of parents who seem to have no concept of chains of transmission. I have been put in the awkward position of explaining to several other parents that we're not in the same bubble, just because our children are. If parent A gets covid at work and tests positive, even if theypass it on to child, they should have child A isolating during their contagious period, so no-one else gets it. If parent A has a party for children B, C, D and E, a sleepover with F and shares lifts to an activity with G, H and I, then probably another couple of families will be infected. I feel like I'm being unreasonable and patronising if I try to explain why I don't want my kids lofts haring or going to parties though.

I know there aren't any easy answers which work for everyone, but I don't think the current school situation is sustainable.

MinesAPintOfTea · 26/12/2020 23:58

[quote TheSunIsStillShining]@Elvesaremagic
I like your calm and logical reasoning. And that you actually offer an alternative - a potential solution :) We need parents to want to work together with schools/teachers to make it work.

To everyone who says peer interaction is so needed: you do know that we are in the midst of a pandemic? Your kid's "socialization" needs do not trump other's health/well being. And especially small kids are way more resilient than given credit for. A kid in GCSE/A-levle year has a lot more to lose than a 6 year old by not seeing his/her friends for a few months.

Wish people could put it in perspective.[/quote]
Within a few weeks of school reopening my 8yo stopped the self harming he'd been doing over the summer. I will do anything I can to get him regular face to face interaction with his peers.

When I say that, I haven't set foot in a cafe or pub since march, not had not been in anyone else's house since August. Everything to a minimum except him going to school and a bit of freedom in the park afterwards.

A short, sharp lockdown we will comply with. Anything else and I'll be trying to find friends who are willing to rule break..

XmasSkies2020 · 27/12/2020 00:03

If my primary school and nursery close for more than a couple of weeks and my childminder is forced to close like last time, I simply won’t accept it. I will be asking them to take my children for welfare reasons. I don’t believe the govt will recommend childminder to shut down this time around because parents will kick up a fuss this time.

I have to work. I have no choice. I cannot look after a toddler and KS1 child while working from home. It’s not safe. I can’t take unpaid leave as I have bills to pay after returning from maternity leave and depleted my savings. It’s simply not an option. I’m a manager and really busy at work.

So for welfare reasons I will insist they take my children this time around if my childminder is forced to shutdown. It simply isn’t safe for the children.

The strain on working parents (lets be honest, mainly working mums) is immense. Everyone needs to have more sympathy with families that have young children in our position. Especially single parents.

twinkletoesimnot · 27/12/2020 00:09

@XmasSkies2020
So what are your plans if your child has to repeatedly self isolate or you / they have Covid?

Why does your need or 'welfare' matter more than mine or my family's?

Fedup21 · 27/12/2020 00:15

If my primary school and nursery close for more than a couple of weeks and my childminder is forced to close like last time, I simply won’t accept it. I will be asking them to take my children for welfare reasons

How will you force your childminder to take your childConfused?

BustopherPonsonbyJones · 27/12/2020 00:19

@XmasSkies2020
The government don’t care if you accept it or if you don’t accept it. What on earth do you think has happened to the people who run cafes, hairdressers, theatres, small shops and so on? They accepted the pittance they were given and are struggling to survive. Teachers did not want to accept the terrible conditions in schools but as many so kindly said, we had to accept it or hand in our notice - so anyone who has a mortgage to pay accepted working in an environment which was completely unsafe.

I understand you are worried and frightened but ‘insisting’ on anything the government no longer care about will have absolutely no effect at all. For the sake of your mental health, make some plans to deal with situation if it doesn’t go the way you would like.

GoldenOmber · 27/12/2020 00:25

She’s saying that she would ask social services to take her children for welfare reasons, if I’m reading that right.

Honesty it is getting a BIT wearying that working parents cannot say “this is shit/hellish/impossible” without people immediately jumping on it to remind us that the virus doesn’t care and teachers matter too and It’s A Global Pandemic. Yes! We know! But if we’re going to be expected to simultaneously work and homeschool and care for toddlers, again, the least you could do is let us be honest about how hard it is without immediately piling in to chide us for moaning.

ElectriPfizing · 27/12/2020 00:27

We have a 2 week break now, why ever would we need another? There is no reason to close schools at all. I still dont see this virus any different to flu, norovirus or chicken pox. Good hygiene/sanitation, maintaining personal space and a vaccination programme are our only ammunition. Otherwise, get it and build immunity.

XmasSkies2020 · 27/12/2020 00:27

I was suicidal last time around

XmasSkies2020 · 27/12/2020 00:29

To answer your question. I simply couldn’t manage it again. That’s why I would make a request for welfare reasons

twinkletoesimnot · 27/12/2020 00:31

@GoldenOmber

A lot of teachers are working parents too!

And yes it is shit, hard and hellish - it is for everyone.

It gets a bit wearing repeatedly reading that teachers should just carry on regardless because it's easier for people not to have to look after their own children!

Ylvamoon · 27/12/2020 00:35

To everyone who says peer interaction is so needed: you do know that we are in the midst of a pandemic? Your kid's "socialization" needs do not trump other's health/well being*...
*Wish people could put it in perspective

My perspective is my children's well being. And that includes their mental health through socialization. Covid is not as deadly as it's made out to be. And most importantly, we need to understand that this thing has to run it's course. Lockdown #1 & #2 didn't work, what makes you think it will work a 3rd time?
Why should others health / wellbeing trump our children's wellbeing?

GoldenOmber · 27/12/2020 00:37

It isn’t shot and hard and hellish for everyone, though, as a look at any of the threads on here about people who’ve loved lockdown (family time! Bike rides! Joe Wicks PE!) will tell you.

And I haven’t ONCE said that teachers should just carry on regardless, and nor have most of the people on this thread who have talked about how hard this is and been told off for doing so.

because it's easier for people not to have to look after their own children!

I appreciate that the current situation is beyond stressful for teachers, but when you read people talk about being actually suicidal over last time, it is not helping anyone to use language like that.

Just let people say it’s hard/hell/impossible. Let them say that. And let them discuss things that might help, like changes to furlough, without hearing it all as some coded insistence that we want teachers to die.

KnowingMeKnowingYule · 27/12/2020 00:43

[quote twinkletoesimnot]@GoldenOmber

A lot of teachers are working parents too!

And yes it is shit, hard and hellish - it is for everyone.

It gets a bit wearing repeatedly reading that teachers should just carry on regardless because it's easier for people not to have to look after their own children! [/quote]
Yup this.

Last term for me as a teacher was scary. Very very stressful. Most stressful term in 25 years of teaching no question. I'm not a young teacher but I'm too far away from retirement to jack it all in. Kids don't seem to care about the risks staff are taking to go into school. Some actively goad teachers by coughing 'for a laugh' in class or closing windows or doors on purpose despite knowing the reasons they need to be open. I have also not been able to see my disabled DC who lives in a care home for 11 weeks in the first lockdown and 6 weeks in November despite being able to see thousands of other people's kids at school. It has been awful for teachers too. Absolutely fucking awful.

Butmiss · 27/12/2020 00:54

@GoldenOmber

It isn’t shot and hard and hellish for everyone, though, as a look at any of the threads on here about people who’ve loved lockdown (family time! Bike rides! Joe Wicks PE!) will tell you.

And I haven’t ONCE said that teachers should just carry on regardless, and nor have most of the people on this thread who have talked about how hard this is and been told off for doing so.

because it's easier for people not to have to look after their own children!

I appreciate that the current situation is beyond stressful for teachers, but when you read people talk about being actually suicidal over last time, it is not helping anyone to use language like that.

Just let people say it’s hard/hell/impossible. Let them say that. And let them discuss things that might help, like changes to furlough, without hearing it all as some coded insistence that we want teachers to die.

@GoldenOmber yes I agree with everything you've said there. It annoys me when people on here say parents don't want to look after their children. We all need to support each other through what it going to be a stressful January (and I say that as a childless teacher!)
BustopherPonsonbyJones · 27/12/2020 00:58

@XmasSkies2020
Asking for help before any school closures are announced would be very sensible in that case. I am sorry as I read it that you would leave your children at a childminder’s even if they were closed. Please speak to someone if you are feeling low (hopefully a medical professional).

BustopherPonsonbyJones · 27/12/2020 01:15

@GoldenOmber
Everyone has the right to moan about their situation but it is also incredibly wearing hearing that schools MUST stay open, although it is quite clear they are dangerous for the adults who work in them (I am discounting the opinions of the Us4Them posters who think COVID is just a cold).

I have had to come to terms with the fact that I need a wage and, therefore, I am more likely to be affected by COVID than my friends who work from home. It is, I can assure you, very detrimental to mental health to realise that you don’t matter to other members of society. You have to find ways to deal with it and I found that repeating ‘I can’t go into work, it’s not safe’ didn’t help. Practical solutions were more helpful. I hope we agree that measures need putting into place to make home learning easier and more palatable for all, rather than insisting that schools stay open - although if people had listened to some very sensible posters in August, we wouldn’t have been in this situation now.

MinesAPintOfTea · 27/12/2020 01:31

Sensible suggestions from me: week in, week out, alternating for the class. Giving parents a free choice to not send DC in whilst covid restrictions are in place without deregistering (even 3-5 children fewer in a class gives more space for distancing). Every holiday being two weeks with wider lockdowns to act as firebreaks. Ban out of school activities like scouts and sports clubs that will let the virus jump between schools. Masks as much as possible. Enforce tier restrictions. School to be allowed to send children home and require negative test proof before returning (backed up with penalties).

I don't know which of these will work because I'm not a teacher. The only thing I would fight would be DS sent home indefinitely without peer interaction for great he will start self harming again... And then I'd be trying to get friends to help as an option.

But my job is not to do with schools so I don't know what would work best. And I have to keep it because dh is mildly abusive (came out in first lockdown) so I need to stay independent whilst I sort out my exit plan.

TheSunIsStillShining · 27/12/2020 02:03

@Ylvamoon

To everyone who says peer interaction is so needed: you do know that we are in the midst of a pandemic? Your kid's "socialization" needs do not trump other's health/well being*... *Wish people could put it in perspective

My perspective is my children's well being. And that includes their mental health through socialization. Covid is not as deadly as it's made out to be. And most importantly, we need to understand that this thing has to run it's course. Lockdown #1 & #2 didn't work, what makes you think it will work a 3rd time?
Why should others health / wellbeing trump our children's wellbeing?

Simply because vulnerable people cannot be all put into a camp so everyone else can live their lives as they did before. In a pandemic it's about social solidarity. But I find that the concept of that in western civilization is regarded as something terrible. It's not about one group trumping another. It is about the fact that one group cannot do anything if the whole of society doesn't do their little bit. And also it's not about deaths. It's about the fact that about 40% of the people who become infected/ill then develop long covid. Which may be a life altering condition. Why would your child's well being trump that of everyone else's child's right to be healthy for the rest of their lives?
TheSunIsStillShining · 27/12/2020 02:05

@MinesAPintOfTea
You're right and i should have said: vulnerable kids should be classed as the ones with more f2f time. I believe most teachers know their classes well enough to actually know who these kids are.

TheEchtMeaningofChristmas · 27/12/2020 02:36

All I ask is the education department of the council and the teaching unions get on board with face to face lessons online. If we even had 30 mins a day when the kids weren’t needing attention it would help, but no, there are no online lessons as the union and council say that ‘that is not the teachers job’

Link to this?

psychomath · 27/12/2020 02:53

And also it's not about deaths. It's about the fact that about 40% of the people who become infected/ill then develop long covid.

I swear every time someone quotes the percentage of people who develop 'long covid' it gets higher. How would you define long covid, and where are you getting 40% from?

Ylvamoon · 27/12/2020 03:17

@TheSunIsStillShining- you just said it yourself so beautifully:

It is about the fact that one group cannot do anything if the whole of society doesn't do their little bit

We just represent two different group of vulnerable people/ children. They all can potentially suffer from the long term effects...

And for what it's worth, my DC have a 2week break. We have not been mingling or mixing with other households. So, nope I don't see why schools can't stay open based on your argument.

squiddybear · 27/12/2020 05:07

@Ylvamoon lockdown #1 did work. Numbers had all but dropped off then schools went back and numbers grew. We opened up far too quickly and with no caution. We went from go nowhere and see no one to eat out to help out and mix with 300 other children from different households