noblegiraffe wants SAFER schools not closed schools. Do you?

[noblegiraffe]

I'm sure my username in the title will be a red rag to a bull but anyway, if it's there it can't be denied any more. As you'll be aware if you've spent much time on this section, I post regularly about the situation in schools, particularly secondary schools (my patch). Secondary school children are the most infected subset of the population and lack of mitigation measures in schools is causing chaos. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55145313

I have consistently argued for improving mitigation measures in schools in order to reduce transmission, keep schools open for more pupils and to make them safer for teachers, school staff, and vulnerable pupils.

On these threads I have been routinely abused. I've my mental health called into question, my suitability as a teacher, whether I am harming my pupils by being concerned about school safety. I've been questioned as to whether I'm actually a teacher, whether I work for a union or have some secret agenda (aside from my openly stated one to widen awareness of the school situation and my desire for improved safety). The constant refrain has been that I want schools closed. Firstly I was openly told that I wanted schools closed, then that I secretly wanted schools closed. The data I was posting was so bad that it must be a stealth campaign to close schools. That making schools safer is impossible (such a can't-do attitude) so arguing to make them safer is an argument to close them.

And now, there's just this lie constantly posted that there's a massive campaign on MN to close schools. Posts on threads about a 'vocal poster' (i.e. me) who is constantly arguing for this, with an 'echo chamber' of teachers agreeing. It's horseshit.

I think there's a group of posters who see this as a bit of fun. Posting crap and winding up teachers is some sort of weird hobby for them. They have no skin in the game.

But this isn't a game. It's not a hypothetical argument. It's a genuine health and safety issue. I've seen colleagues go down with covid after spending time in classrooms with positive cases. I know a teacher who has been off for months having had it. Fellow teachers on here are catching it. One had to be blue-lighted to hospital. Teachers and school workers are in intensive care or sadly dying. We don't know how many, because this data isn't being published. We don't know how many teachers are off school, because the DfE have deliberately stopped publishing that data.

The situation in schools is not safe. It can be made safer. If you think 'but my school is safe, we've had no/few cases', then please be aware of how quickly things can change, and maybe getting preventative measures in beforehand might be desirable.

My top wish list is:

Mass testing in schools. Particularly when there is a positive case the whole bubble should be tested, to enable effective and targeted isolation and to flush out asymptomatic cases.

Scrapping the policy of only sending home close contacts. It's not working. Relying on children with covid to display the three main adult symptoms is pathetically unreliable as a way of identifying cases and isolating at-risk students. Testing should replace this.

Masks in secondary classrooms (with obvious exemptions and workarounds where needed. This is managed internationally, why should we not be able to?).

Funding for schools to improve ventilation where inadequate and for extra heating to keep the windows open.

No fines for ECV families.

Transparency around schools data, regularly published so the government can be held properly to account.

I don't want schools to close. I want them to be made safer so that they stay open longer to more pupils. If you agree with the premise, parent or teacher, even if you have a different wish list of how to achieve this, please post in support.

Thank you.

@RuleWithAWoodenFoot

I want more dangerous schools with knives and that Indiana Jones ball thing that rolls down corridors.

Ah you need to come and work with me then!

oo lets all discuss the op's mental health... because that is a really good way of distracting from the fact that schools are not safe.

social distancing my arse.... there are groups of pupils... who gather outside school and do not disperse. Then there is the gaggle of pupils using the local shop without masks mixing bubbles. Mind you it is made worse by half of the pavements being filled with cars parked on double yellow lines.

@Comefromaway really you think staff will report to hse ? Its not that easy and people are desperately trying to hold on to their jobs

One singular asymptomatic case found.

That’s scary to think about how much damage that asymptomatic case might have gone on to do had it not been found out during that testing.
I know in Cyprus, where I have family, they were regularly testing staff and pupils in schools as a matter of course and found many asymptomatic cases that way too.

At least the option is there.

I have seen teachers who have the same effect as that ball thingy.... you can feel the force of authority and don't mess with me coming down the corridor and even the most truculent kid starts to behave. I would love to have that effect...

For the sake of my sanity I've stepped away from many of these threads because (forgive the exasperation) the goady and chronically stupid are so bizarrely invested in gaslighting education staff to suit whatever version of events suits their opinion.

Offline most people I know want schools open and open in a way that is safe for pupils/staff, and they want the government to be held accountable for their handling of schools.

Only on MN can people write multiple threads saying:

• to open schools safely the government needs to consider A, B, C

• please be aware that the version of school being sold is not the reality
• we want schools open and safer

and people spend months saying 'teachers think they're special, teachers want schools closed'.

After stepping back for a while I'd go as far as to say it's a frankly worrying obsession for some.

I agree.

My child’s school is closed as there are too many staff with Covid to open, even for the half of kids that aren’t currently self-isolating.

And what happened to the laptops that were promised in April? Investing properly in those could have enabled proper home learning for secondary pupils and saved millions of people from having to close their businesses. Covid isn’t being spread in my local hairdressers where they are masked up, it’s in schools with no masks, no social distancing, mixing with 100 plus people a day.

noble you are incredible. Thank you for not shutting up.

But our local website is full of stories each day of businesses who have been inspected and found lacking and penalised for not following Covid safe practises.

@MrsFezziwig

Not a teacher. I’ve just been watching the Panorama programme about the effect of Covid on small businesses. To me the failure of government to act to make schools safer is trashing the economy by keeping the transmission rate up so they have to keep on with lockdowns, tiers etc. How they can’t make this obvious connection is baffling.

Yes, I sort of feel this too. I'm a teacher, and I want schools to be open (in some form at least) but I have a lot of childless 20 something friends, and some of them are getting increasingly concerned that they are going to be fucked over in order to keep schools "open".

@Comefromaway schools do have to attempt to follow the rules
Lets not pretend there are no rules whatsoever , yes they can be improved but in my ds school
Masks to move around ( all schools)
Windows open ( yes appreciate some can't )
Anti bac outside every classroom that they have to use before goimg in ( no reAson why all schools can't do )
Year group bubbles inc zoned of areas ( maybe not possible in some school layouts )
In many work environments they have 2 m rule , do you think people don't sometimes forget , or you open a door to loo and walk into someone , its not all reportable stiff often simple human error etc

I agree.

I'd like safer schools too.
I'd also like some sort of decision about exams, please. The uncertainty isn't helpin.

don't know what happened to my last g there, sorry.

[quote timeforanewstart]@Comefromaway schools do have to attempt to follow the rules
Lets not pretend there are no rules whatsoever , yes they can be improved but in my ds school
Masks to move around ( all schools)
Windows open ( yes appreciate some can't )
Anti bac outside every classroom that they have to use before goimg in ( no reAson why all schools can't do )
Year group bubbles inc zoned of areas ( maybe not possible in some school layouts )
In many work environments they have 2 m rule , do you think people don't sometimes forget , or you open a door to loo and walk into someone , its not all reportable stiff often simple human error etc[/quote]
Masks to move around - not being enforced - staff rarely on corridors

Windows open - what windows

Anti bac - my daughter & husband take their own. It’s available on entry in the morning, that’s it

Zoned areas - none existent, no one way system, corridors a free for all

That’s the reality for us.

@Comefromaway the choice isn't always there when you need a job , they aren't easy to get . I have been made redundant due to covid back in june and all I have been able to get is a few weeks temp work , struggling to keep our head above water , so if small breaches in workplace and I was offered a job there , I would prob take it

Thanks noble. And I'll reinforce your point about how quickly it can happen. There are 15 of us teachers off with Covid at my school (secondary) right now. We had almost no cases until 2 weeks ago. The school has had to close and move to remote learning because there are not enough teachers. And we have not been socialising or having meetings in person. It's not safe in the classroom and sending home close contacts only doesn't work.

I read other threads open mouthed. People believe what they want to believe.

@Comefromaway ok but aren't some of those the schools issues
Not enforcing masks ? Lack of anti bac both of those can be sorted by the school

I mean sure noble, you crack on. But it is clear that you are bothered by lots of people including me for some reason. shrug

Another contribution of zero usefulness @MrsMigginsMate Maybe stop derailing the thread - it’s about safety in schools if you recall?

I'm pretty sure I only ever mentioned Noble's mental health in an "I'm stepping away from this for a bit, how are you coping with the fuckers?" way. It was a couple of months ago, around the Climbdad time, I think, when Ecosse was in full stride and long before it became fashionable as a specific put down for Noble. I only mentioned it in this thread because I can see an odd few people worrying about Noble that I do think genuinely care. We ask how she is, because we're amazed that the constant barrage doesn't get to her, and we know it would to us - for example, I descended into "Fuck off you entitled wankers" earlier today.

Like I say, genuine concern is immediately apparent, faux concern is a totally different beast.

Would you be asked to attend a staff meeting/training session with approx 30 staff members seated in a small room the size of a classroom meant for around 30-35 students with everyone sat right next to each other?

Completely agree OP. I think the way teachers are expected to work through this is scandalous.

[quote timeforanewstart]@Comefromaway ok but aren't some of those the schools issues
Not enforcing masks ? Lack of anti bac both of those can be sorted by the school[/quote]
Yes they can. But they are not. Because apart from masks it’s not compulsory.

@timeforanewstart

Im on the fence with masks ? Are they making a huge difference in schools in the countries that wear them ? Maybe they are ? I wouldn't have an issue with my ds wearing a mask but do think it isn't ideal either and can make people more complacent at times. Lots of fiddling with masks and touching faces etc Testing of contacts when a case makes sense but what do you propose if negative they can come in ? Or test everyday or 3 times in incubation period , how would you propose the testing is used ? If you have lots of windows open as most radiators are under window I am not too sure cranking heating up makes that much difference to temp, But please don't also believe that all other workplaces are covid safe ? Even if they claim to be, speaking from experience of being a temp in couple places , places are trying but it is impossible to follow it all at all times , due to various reasons. I think the term covid safe or covid secure is misleading , taking covid measures would be a more realistic term

I think the difference is that in most other workplaces (obviously there are exceptions), things like social distancing are being followed most of the time where possible.

You work with adults, who presumably mostly wear their masks without having to be constantly reminded (especially if those masks are a legal requirement).

You can trust your colleagues if they say they have washed their hands or sanitised something.

In schools, we have no social distancing ALL of the time, and we are constantly dealing with children who cannot/will not follow the rules. And will lie to you about using hand sanitiser or washing their hands because that is what children do. And it becomes mentally exhausting.

And then when a kid tests positive, you, as a teacher, are under huge pressure to pretend everyone is 100% following the rules, because that is what they want to hear.

I've said this elsewhere, but it belongs here too.

Do people realize how little the 2m is of actual value? It is an airborne virus... so the asymptomatic kid in row 3 will infect others given they stay in the room for more than 15 minutes....
just sayin'

again, the conversation is about something that, even if possible, is of little value as a preventive measure. It's window dressing and farcical. And makes kids/teachers cold.