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noblegiraffe wants SAFER schools not closed schools. Do you?

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 01/12/2020 20:19

I'm sure my username in the title will be a red rag to a bull but anyway, if it's there it can't be denied any more. As you'll be aware if you've spent much time on this section, I post regularly about the situation in schools, particularly secondary schools (my patch). Secondary school children are the most infected subset of the population and lack of mitigation measures in schools is causing chaos. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55145313

I have consistently argued for improving mitigation measures in schools in order to reduce transmission, keep schools open for more pupils and to make them safer for teachers, school staff, and vulnerable pupils.

On these threads I have been routinely abused. I've my mental health called into question, my suitability as a teacher, whether I am harming my pupils by being concerned about school safety. I've been questioned as to whether I'm actually a teacher, whether I work for a union or have some secret agenda (aside from my openly stated one to widen awareness of the school situation and my desire for improved safety). The constant refrain has been that I want schools closed. Firstly I was openly told that I wanted schools closed, then that I secretly wanted schools closed. The data I was posting was so bad that it must be a stealth campaign to close schools. That making schools safer is impossible (such a can't-do attitude) so arguing to make them safer is an argument to close them.

And now, there's just this lie constantly posted that there's a massive campaign on MN to close schools. Posts on threads about a 'vocal poster' (i.e. me) who is constantly arguing for this, with an 'echo chamber' of teachers agreeing. It's horseshit.

I think there's a group of posters who see this as a bit of fun. Posting crap and winding up teachers is some sort of weird hobby for them. They have no skin in the game.

But this isn't a game. It's not a hypothetical argument. It's a genuine health and safety issue. I've seen colleagues go down with covid after spending time in classrooms with positive cases. I know a teacher who has been off for months having had it. Fellow teachers on here are catching it. One had to be blue-lighted to hospital. Teachers and school workers are in intensive care or sadly dying. We don't know how many, because this data isn't being published. We don't know how many teachers are off school, because the DfE have deliberately stopped publishing that data.

The situation in schools is not safe. It can be made safer. If you think 'but my school is safe, we've had no/few cases', then please be aware of how quickly things can change, and maybe getting preventative measures in beforehand might be desirable.

My top wish list is:

Mass testing in schools. Particularly when there is a positive case the whole bubble should be tested, to enable effective and targeted isolation and to flush out asymptomatic cases.

Scrapping the policy of only sending home close contacts. It's not working. Relying on children with covid to display the three main adult symptoms is pathetically unreliable as a way of identifying cases and isolating at-risk students. Testing should replace this.

Masks in secondary classrooms (with obvious exemptions and workarounds where needed. This is managed internationally, why should we not be able to?).

Funding for schools to improve ventilation where inadequate and for extra heating to keep the windows open.

No fines for ECV families.

Transparency around schools data, regularly published so the government can be held properly to account.

I don't want schools to close. I want them to be made safer so that they stay open longer to more pupils. If you agree with the premise, parent or teacher, even if you have a different wish list of how to achieve this, please post in support.

Thank you.

OP posts:
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timeforanewstart · 01/12/2020 22:37

Also I have never been in a school with classrooms wit no windows ? Windows that don't open yes
Are there really that many schools with classrooms that don't have a window at all

middleager · 01/12/2020 22:38

Yes. My son is recovering from Covid, 10% of his form alone have it. He's missed 7 weeks in school since Sept due to high volume of cases at school And he's Gcse years. My other son in Gcse years hasn't been in for a month either.

One of our schools have had 7 student cases since the weekend and a colleague is seriously ill with it, on top of the scores of other colleagues who've caught it.

It is catastrophic.

LyraSilvertongueBelacqua · 01/12/2020 22:38

I'm with you @noblegiraffe .

Primary school teacher here and also clinically extremely vulnerable. Expected back at work tomorrow because apparently this lockdown has worked its magic and I'm no longer at risk?

Oh except this is the letter I was sent, which basically says my job significantly increases my risk.

What can we do about it though? Who do we need to speak to in volumes?

noblegiraffe wants SAFER schools not closed schools. Do you?
wondersun · 01/12/2020 22:38

This a million times.

Can we have no fines for any families that can home educate and don’t have any safeguarding issues though please!?!

The situation is unsustainable and unforgivable. At my previous workplace five out of eight colleagues have tested positive in the secondary school subject department. The others could feasibly be asymptomatic. Loads of students have tested positive too. Covid will then make it into homes and back out into primary schools and other workplaces, etc.

Schools are driving the infection rate.

And we have to listen to how it’s in the best interests of all children and their mental health.

That’s crap. Every decision is an economic one.

For some students, yes of course it is. But for everyone, no way. Many are terrified of taking covid home. How can you learn terrified?

Please keep shouting noblegiraffe, you are doing amazing. You speak nothing but sense.

There is plenty that could be done to mitigate risk. I am not sending my kids back because for a million reasons. One of those reasons is not wanting to be part of a system that is disregarding the health and rights of teachers.

It is unforgivable and has made me question exactly what sort of society we live in. Sending lots of best wishes.

timeforanewstart · 01/12/2020 22:39

@TheSunIsStillShining therefore if that is case then everyone is at risk who is work
I and many of my friends in offices have no masks on and purely relying on the 2m as did all supermarket storeworkers until august

Comefromaway · 01/12/2020 22:39

@timeforanewstart

Also I have never been in a school with classrooms wit no windows ? Windows that don't open yes Are there really that many schools with classrooms that don't have a window at all
Very common in performing arts departments.
tartiflette · 01/12/2020 22:39

Completely agree with you noble.
Thank you for persisting.

I can only think the majority of those who take objection to any of this must have absolutely no idea of the reality in secondary corridors and classrooms, or on school buses.

MrsMigginsMate · 01/12/2020 22:39

@MrsFezziwig

I mean sure noble, you crack on. But it is clear that you are bothered by lots of people including me for some reason. shrug

Another contribution of zero usefulness @MrsMigginsMate Maybe stop derailing the thread - it’s about safety in schools if you recall?

Aw bless, nice try. Its not derailing to comment on another users submission. If I had come out of the blue and introduced a new topic myself then yes. But you're way off base with this. Grin
Comefromaway · 01/12/2020 22:40

Sansa, you explained it much better than I did.

Piggywaspushed · 01/12/2020 22:42

Me! My room has no windows!

wondersun · 01/12/2020 22:43

@IloveJKRowling

I don't want to speak for her but it seems to me noble is the kind of person who just can't see a terrible wrong being committed and stand idly by.

That's why I keep on too. And incidentally is exactly the kind of person I hope teaches my children.

Not someone who says 'keep your head down and put up with terrible, awful things - it's the best you can hope for in life'

❤️❤️❤️❤️
IloveJKRowling · 01/12/2020 22:43

Talking about safer schools: what do people think about temperature checks?

I have 2 DDs in 2 schools - one of them temp checks every single child and staff member on the way in. My thought is - it's low cost, takes virtually no time, is a huge disincentive to those who would try and send kids in sick and HAS picked up kids with fever before they've entered the building (so they got sent home for a covid test).

Basically, I know it's not the whole answer, but it seems like a good idea and easy to do. I wonder why my other DD's school isn't doing it, to be honest.

timeforanewstart · 01/12/2020 22:43

@Comefromaway ahh never been into performing arts or my children so no experience of those depts
Mine are sports orientated which has been impacted at school quite a lot

Comefromaway · 01/12/2020 22:44

I used to hire school facilities to run drama classes and off the top of my head all the primary schools we used had windows but the secondary school music, dance, drama and technology rooms did not.

ChloeDecker · 01/12/2020 22:44

Are there really that many schools with classrooms that don't have a window at all

My DH teaches in a school where they expanded by going below ground. Lots of the classrooms there have no windows

Itisasecret · 01/12/2020 22:45

I agree, from what I can see many posters on MN want schools to stay open so they can keep up with posting all day and all night on MN. It is beyond weird and a bit sad.

The same posters who incidentally bang on about schools staying open for the vulnerable, yet can’t see the decimation being done to the equality gap. Every time they quote, “my school/dc’s are fine”. They shine a light on their lack of understanding and selfishness.

It must be a sad existence when your only regular interaction is goading on MN 24/7. The amount of time some posters show up, that’s all they are doing.

Comefromaway · 01/12/2020 22:45

@IloveJKRowling

Talking about safer schools: what do people think about temperature checks?

I have 2 DDs in 2 schools - one of them temp checks every single child and staff member on the way in. My thought is - it's low cost, takes virtually no time, is a huge disincentive to those who would try and send kids in sick and HAS picked up kids with fever before they've entered the building (so they got sent home for a covid test).

Basically, I know it's not the whole answer, but it seems like a good idea and easy to do. I wonder why my other DD's school isn't doing it, to be honest.

Temperature checks is the ONE vaguely useful thing their school actually does. Not that it’s picked up any of the many positive cases mind.
SansaSnark · 01/12/2020 22:46

[quote timeforanewstart]@Comefromaway schools do have to attempt to follow the rules
Lets not pretend there are no rules whatsoever , yes they can be improved but in my ds school
Masks to move around ( all schools)
Windows open ( yes appreciate some can't )
Anti bac outside every classroom that they have to use before goimg in ( no reAson why all schools can't do )
Year group bubbles inc zoned of areas ( maybe not possible in some school layouts )
In many work environments they have 2 m rule , do you think people don't sometimes forget , or you open a door to loo and walk into someone , its not all reportable stiff often simple human error etc[/quote]
Masks to move around school- but how do you deal with the kids who consistently refuse to wear a mask? Or the ones who constantly forget? I would say about 90-95% of our students do this well, but dealing with those who won't becomes very difficult. (By won't, I don't mean those who have a valid reason not to, I mean the ones who won't put up with a tiny bit of discomfort for other people's safety).

Windows open- better in some classrooms than others. It does help. Some classrooms are bitterly cold, though, already.

Hand sanitiser- Costs money, kids damage dispensers. If the teacher dispenses it, then they can't socially distance.

Year group bubbles- yes, but again takes a LOT of effort to enforce. And even a whole yeargroup mixing can be ~200 kids.

And yes, in many workplaces I am sure the 2m rule is occasionally broken, sometimes for more than 15 minutes. The difference is, in school, for most of the day I am within 2m of a child because I can't not be. All children are within 2m of several others, because of the lack of space. Corridors are always crowded. There is no attempt to distance at break or lunch by the children, and if there's an incident you HAVE to get involved and often not distance.

If breaking social distancing was an occasional mistake, that would be totally different, but it is about 90% of the time in schools.

ChloeDecker · 01/12/2020 22:46

@IloveJKRowling

Talking about safer schools: what do people think about temperature checks?

I have 2 DDs in 2 schools - one of them temp checks every single child and staff member on the way in. My thought is - it's low cost, takes virtually no time, is a huge disincentive to those who would try and send kids in sick and HAS picked up kids with fever before they've entered the building (so they got sent home for a covid test).

Basically, I know it's not the whole answer, but it seems like a good idea and easy to do. I wonder why my other DD's school isn't doing it, to be honest.

I’d be up for this. My DH uses those (he works in a private school) but my school couldn’t even afford to buy the lidded bins mentioned in the original guidance.
SansaSnark · 01/12/2020 22:49

@IloveJKRowling

Talking about safer schools: what do people think about temperature checks?

I have 2 DDs in 2 schools - one of them temp checks every single child and staff member on the way in. My thought is - it's low cost, takes virtually no time, is a huge disincentive to those who would try and send kids in sick and HAS picked up kids with fever before they've entered the building (so they got sent home for a covid test).

Basically, I know it's not the whole answer, but it seems like a good idea and easy to do. I wonder why my other DD's school isn't doing it, to be honest.

I would support this in my school, but I expect it isn't practical timewise in a secondary school- and I'm sure whoever responsible would feel very guilty if they missed the one kid who had a temperature.

I think the message needs to be that anyone who feels unwell for any reason should stay away- we had a kid with "cold symptoms" on Friday who has now tested positive.

I think there needs to be acknowledgement that younger children especially don't always present with classic symptoms.

timeforanewstart · 01/12/2020 22:52

@Itisasecret I want schools to stay open as my ds is in year 11 and expected to sit exams in a few months , in fact has btech one in feb
I also think its better for the majority to be in school
If that makes me selfish then so be it , of course I want them safe but other than write to my Mp what else can I do on a personal level.
And yes it makes me wonder why some schools put in measures which others don't seem to be.
I am impressed by what my son school has done and think they have done the best they possibly can under the guidelines they have been given , a previous poster said there school doesn't enforce mask wearing in corridors , in a situation like that , that is on the school.
Lack of windows obviously not

middleager · 01/12/2020 22:52

@IloveJKRowling

Talking about safer schools: what do people think about temperature checks?

I have 2 DDs in 2 schools - one of them temp checks every single child and staff member on the way in. My thought is - it's low cost, takes virtually no time, is a huge disincentive to those who would try and send kids in sick and HAS picked up kids with fever before they've entered the building (so they got sent home for a covid test).

Basically, I know it's not the whole answer, but it seems like a good idea and easy to do. I wonder why my other DD's school isn't doing it, to be honest.

There are 1500-2000 children at most secondaries around here. I'm guessing that's not the case at your DD's school?
middleager · 01/12/2020 22:53

That's not snarky by the way JK as I love your posts. Just wondering how they can test so many?

TheSunIsStillShining · 01/12/2020 22:53

[quote timeforanewstart]@TheSunIsStillShining therefore if that is case then everyone is at risk who is work
I and many of my friends in offices have no masks on and purely relying on the 2m as did all supermarket storeworkers until august [/quote]
I've worked in offices in most of my 20+yr career. I have yet to come across one that has no ventilation.

But I've been in many schools and mostly they don't have a built in airflow system/ventilation like office buildings and supermarkets.

Also supermarkets, by the sheer size of them, have more air, thus diluting the virus count per square meter. I would think.

MarshaBradyo · 01/12/2020 22:54

@IloveJKRowling

Talking about safer schools: what do people think about temperature checks?

I have 2 DDs in 2 schools - one of them temp checks every single child and staff member on the way in. My thought is - it's low cost, takes virtually no time, is a huge disincentive to those who would try and send kids in sick and HAS picked up kids with fever before they've entered the building (so they got sent home for a covid test).

Basically, I know it's not the whole answer, but it seems like a good idea and easy to do. I wonder why my other DD's school isn't doing it, to be honest.

Fine with this. DD’s nursery does it.