noblegiraffe wants SAFER schools not closed schools. Do you?

[noblegiraffe]

I'm sure my username in the title will be a red rag to a bull but anyway, if it's there it can't be denied any more. As you'll be aware if you've spent much time on this section, I post regularly about the situation in schools, particularly secondary schools (my patch). Secondary school children are the most infected subset of the population and lack of mitigation measures in schools is causing chaos. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55145313

I have consistently argued for improving mitigation measures in schools in order to reduce transmission, keep schools open for more pupils and to make them safer for teachers, school staff, and vulnerable pupils.

On these threads I have been routinely abused. I've my mental health called into question, my suitability as a teacher, whether I am harming my pupils by being concerned about school safety. I've been questioned as to whether I'm actually a teacher, whether I work for a union or have some secret agenda (aside from my openly stated one to widen awareness of the school situation and my desire for improved safety). The constant refrain has been that I want schools closed. Firstly I was openly told that I wanted schools closed, then that I secretly wanted schools closed. The data I was posting was so bad that it must be a stealth campaign to close schools. That making schools safer is impossible (such a can't-do attitude) so arguing to make them safer is an argument to close them.

And now, there's just this lie constantly posted that there's a massive campaign on MN to close schools. Posts on threads about a 'vocal poster' (i.e. me) who is constantly arguing for this, with an 'echo chamber' of teachers agreeing. It's horseshit.

I think there's a group of posters who see this as a bit of fun. Posting crap and winding up teachers is some sort of weird hobby for them. They have no skin in the game.

But this isn't a game. It's not a hypothetical argument. It's a genuine health and safety issue. I've seen colleagues go down with covid after spending time in classrooms with positive cases. I know a teacher who has been off for months having had it. Fellow teachers on here are catching it. One had to be blue-lighted to hospital. Teachers and school workers are in intensive care or sadly dying. We don't know how many, because this data isn't being published. We don't know how many teachers are off school, because the DfE have deliberately stopped publishing that data.

The situation in schools is not safe. It can be made safer. If you think 'but my school is safe, we've had no/few cases', then please be aware of how quickly things can change, and maybe getting preventative measures in beforehand might be desirable.

My top wish list is:

Mass testing in schools. Particularly when there is a positive case the whole bubble should be tested, to enable effective and targeted isolation and to flush out asymptomatic cases.

Scrapping the policy of only sending home close contacts. It's not working. Relying on children with covid to display the three main adult symptoms is pathetically unreliable as a way of identifying cases and isolating at-risk students. Testing should replace this.

Masks in secondary classrooms (with obvious exemptions and workarounds where needed. This is managed internationally, why should we not be able to?).

Funding for schools to improve ventilation where inadequate and for extra heating to keep the windows open.

No fines for ECV families.

Transparency around schools data, regularly published so the government can be held properly to account.

I don't want schools to close. I want them to be made safer so that they stay open longer to more pupils. If you agree with the premise, parent or teacher, even if you have a different wish list of how to achieve this, please post in support.

Thank you.

It is absolutely like arguing with a year 9.

Well, yes. But since Clav is someone who claims to have high-level contacts in education - and does argue like the politicians and dfE do when discussing schools - I think it is just an indication of the general level of 'let's ignore the evidence and argue like 14 year olds' going on within those who are NOT in schools but DO (unfortunately) have a hand in education policy.

WhyNotMe40
evidence please

I didn't bookmark them and they were schools I had not heard of before - but here's another school I have heard of - it's a girls' comprehensive school despite the 'arts specialism';

"Staff Masks to be worn in communal areas around the school (corridors/stairwells/canteen/toilets/staffroom)."
^"Teachers may choose to wear visors/masks when
teaching."^

www.hillview.kent.sch.uk/about-us/return-to-school-2020/

Clav if there’s limited evidence for the role of children in transmission of the virus, how do you explain the infection rates in secondary kids?

If you were in the close indoor presence, daily, of large groups of the most infected subset of the population, would you want them to wear a mask?

Clav, there are (apparently) 20,832 primary schools in England.

Could you explain why , on the evidence of a handful of risk assessments from schools - and it sounds as if you some of these were secondary - you can so confidently assert that I am lying when I state what my school's risk assessment says??

cantkeepawayforever
Could you explain why , on the evidence of a handful of risk assessments from schools - and it sounds as if you some of these were secondary - you can so confidently assert that I am lying when I state what my school's risk assessment says??

You appear to have posted a number of times on this topic;

"My preference would be for all students to wear masks, for teachers to wear visors, and for everyone to wear masks while circulating around the building."

@noblegiraffe

Here are some calculations based on ONS infection survey data. I calculated the percentage drop in infection rates in the various age groups from the start of lockdown (data only available till 28th Nov but should be a good indicator of overall impact)

Up to Y6 31.3%
Y7-Y11 4%
Y12-age 24 25.1%
25-34 31.5%
35-49 40.8%
50-69 28.7%
70+ 45%

Wow. That is extremely stark.

Clavinova what are your thoughts on this data, showing that levels of infection in secondary school aged children was minimally affected by recent lock down measures, compared to very significant drops in levels of infection in other age groups?

I grant you that analysing government-collected data is a different approach to your seemingly preferred method of research ie trawling t'internet until you can find something to support your (non) argument, but still.

I am (again) quite enjoying watching Clav tie herself in knots while proving noblegiraffe ever more correct in her analysis of risk in secondary schools with every post.

I think that might be right, cant. I think that primary cases are more sensitive to community levels of infection because they are much smaller and because social contact outside of school is more likely to be an organised activity.

When I compare my DC’s primary to the secondary I work in, the difference in covid measure is also stark.

walksen why do you say you "obviously" had to take them off at the front? I teach in an area in Scotland where the rules are masks in communal areas, masks when you to close to a student, and masks for both staff and students S4 and up (so, 15+)
I'm not allowed to remove my mask at the front with those ages. Took a while to get used to, but am used to it now.

What is remarkable is Clav desperately trawling the internet to find schools brave enough to go against DfE guidance to try to prove that somehow, the DfE are not the bad guys for having shitty guidance but schools/teachers for not going against it.

Amongst the people who believe that evidence that students can pass the virus to adults is limited, the belief appears to be that students can pass to students (though possibly not at school), teachers can pass to students and other teachers, but students cannot possibly pass to teachers.

What a complicated mechanism of infection this virus has!

The dynamics of transmission via aerosols in the classroom change completely depending on whether the infected person–or patient zero–is a student or a teacher. Teachers talk far more than students and raise their voices to be heard, which multiplies the expulsion of potentially contagious particles. In comparison, an infected student will only speak occasionally."

This person has not been in a classroom since 1930!
Kids are loud. Oh so loud! Inside voices please ad infinitum.

noblegiraffe
Here are some calculations based on ONS infection survey data. I calculated the percentage drop in infection rates in the various age groups from the start of lockdown (data only available till 28th Nov but should be a good indicator of overall impact)

And what would be the percentage drop if teachers were wearing masks in the classroom? I still can't see why it would be difficult to organise if you all want to wear masks as you claim.

@walksen - I think that’s the problem: schools are fine until they aren’t. Reach a critical point where there is too much virus circulating within the school community and too many people have gone off sick or are isolating, and the already limited safety systems fall down, because the staff responsible for implementing them are no longer in school. As schools are already woefully underfunded, this happens all too quickly and easily. It is utterly ludicrous, the level of responsibility placed on schools for childcare, education, mental health, emotional health, safeguarding, etc, on the back of the pathetic level of funding provided for all of it. It shines the spotlight on how little society really cares, that it expects so much to be done with so little. It’s been like watching a bully flog a dying horse, seeing what underfunding has done to social care, education, healthcare, etc. It’s only when the horse is actually dead that people seem to realise they expected far too much for far too little.

But of course, @Clavinova the whip bearer would still claim it’s the bloody lazy horse that deserves a good kicking.

Walkaround

What kicking - I thought you were keen to wear masks!

No school should be endorsing visors because they do absolutely nothing. The only use would be with a mask for first aid procedures if you’re likely to be splashed with bodily fluids

Clav avoiding answering questions by answering with a question.

Definitely not posting in good faith.

[quote Walkaround]@walksen - I think that’s the problem: schools are fine until they aren’t. Reach a critical point where there is too much virus circulating within the school community and too many people have gone off sick or are isolating, and the already limited safety systems fall down, because the staff responsible for implementing them are no longer in school. As schools are already woefully underfunded, this happens all too quickly and easily. It is utterly ludicrous, the level of responsibility placed on schools for childcare, education, mental health, emotional health, safeguarding, etc, on the back of the pathetic level of funding provided for all of it. It shines the spotlight on how little society really cares, that it expects so much to be done with so little. It’s been like watching a bully flog a dying horse, seeing what underfunding has done to social care, education, healthcare, etc. It’s only when the horse is actually dead that people seem to realise they expected far too much for far too little.[/quote]
Brilliant post. 100% agree.

@Clavinova

Walkaround

What kicking - I thought you were keen to wear masks!

@Clavinova - ah, yes, proving my point nicely!

@cantkeepawayforever

That's interesting, Noble.

I am genuinely surprised that the primary group has dropped so much. I wonder it is whether more primary parents were wfh, and all children's activities that miox children from different schools and classes were essentially stopped so despite the contact in school remaining constant, the amount of mixing outside school was significantly less?

I don’t think this is the case, activities were on as normal and many children were in tier 1 with inside mixing allowed. I think it’s just the case that young children are less likely to spread this disease. The evidence for that should not have been extrapolated to older children though. School set up is also vastly different, primary are only mixing with very fixed bubbles of around 30

activities were on as normal

Not in lockdown. Unless it was part of wraparound childcare, they had to move to zoom again.

My figures were relating to the drop in infection rates in primary kids over second lockdown.

I don’t think this is the case, activities were on as normal and many children were in tier 1 with inside mixing allowed.

Bugle, Noble's figures referred to the effect of the most recent lockdown -almost all children's activities (except school) shut down.

Clavinova we have no idea what impact teachers wearing masks in the classroom would have as an isolated measure in the UK.

Evidence from the rest of the world suggests that everyone in schools wearing masks, along with separate desks, more space, routine testing would have a significantly beneficial effect.

Not possible to isolate one variable ie teachers wearing masks as countries with strident covid mitigation measures use a range of measures.

Which they are able to do because they have governments that invest in education and healthcare rather than flog it into the ground then wonder why it's not coping.

Sorry, X-post.