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noblegiraffe wants SAFER schools not closed schools. Do you?

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 01/12/2020 20:19

I'm sure my username in the title will be a red rag to a bull but anyway, if it's there it can't be denied any more. As you'll be aware if you've spent much time on this section, I post regularly about the situation in schools, particularly secondary schools (my patch). Secondary school children are the most infected subset of the population and lack of mitigation measures in schools is causing chaos. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55145313

I have consistently argued for improving mitigation measures in schools in order to reduce transmission, keep schools open for more pupils and to make them safer for teachers, school staff, and vulnerable pupils.

On these threads I have been routinely abused. I've my mental health called into question, my suitability as a teacher, whether I am harming my pupils by being concerned about school safety. I've been questioned as to whether I'm actually a teacher, whether I work for a union or have some secret agenda (aside from my openly stated one to widen awareness of the school situation and my desire for improved safety). The constant refrain has been that I want schools closed. Firstly I was openly told that I wanted schools closed, then that I secretly wanted schools closed. The data I was posting was so bad that it must be a stealth campaign to close schools. That making schools safer is impossible (such a can't-do attitude) so arguing to make them safer is an argument to close them.

And now, there's just this lie constantly posted that there's a massive campaign on MN to close schools. Posts on threads about a 'vocal poster' (i.e. me) who is constantly arguing for this, with an 'echo chamber' of teachers agreeing. It's horseshit.

I think there's a group of posters who see this as a bit of fun. Posting crap and winding up teachers is some sort of weird hobby for them. They have no skin in the game.

But this isn't a game. It's not a hypothetical argument. It's a genuine health and safety issue. I've seen colleagues go down with covid after spending time in classrooms with positive cases. I know a teacher who has been off for months having had it. Fellow teachers on here are catching it. One had to be blue-lighted to hospital. Teachers and school workers are in intensive care or sadly dying. We don't know how many, because this data isn't being published. We don't know how many teachers are off school, because the DfE have deliberately stopped publishing that data.

The situation in schools is not safe. It can be made safer. If you think 'but my school is safe, we've had no/few cases', then please be aware of how quickly things can change, and maybe getting preventative measures in beforehand might be desirable.

My top wish list is:

Mass testing in schools. Particularly when there is a positive case the whole bubble should be tested, to enable effective and targeted isolation and to flush out asymptomatic cases.

Scrapping the policy of only sending home close contacts. It's not working. Relying on children with covid to display the three main adult symptoms is pathetically unreliable as a way of identifying cases and isolating at-risk students. Testing should replace this.

Masks in secondary classrooms (with obvious exemptions and workarounds where needed. This is managed internationally, why should we not be able to?).

Funding for schools to improve ventilation where inadequate and for extra heating to keep the windows open.

No fines for ECV families.

Transparency around schools data, regularly published so the government can be held properly to account.

I don't want schools to close. I want them to be made safer so that they stay open longer to more pupils. If you agree with the premise, parent or teacher, even if you have a different wish list of how to achieve this, please post in support.

Thank you.

OP posts:
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Walkaround · 05/12/2020 15:03

Actually, let me rephrase that, if Government advice were, “we advise against the wearing of masks in supermarkets,” how many people would go against the advice?

noblegiraffe · 05/12/2020 15:05

Not only that, but the use of masks in shops should be avoided, and the hand sanitiser at the entrance is adequate protection.

Oh, and you don’t need to maintain 2m distance either. Because hand sanitiser.

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Walkaround · 05/12/2020 15:05

Hand sanitiser and separation of groups by aisles.

WhyNotMe40 · 05/12/2020 15:06

Clav - the only reason teachers are not wearing masks is because they are NOT ALLOWED BY THE DFE.
The government has essentially banned us from that risk mitigation that is mandatory for practically all other indoor workplaces with others .
You will get the odd teacher who was anti masks in the classroom. Whether they still hold that view having been through this autumn term is debatable. I know personally of several who have changed their minds having seen young fit healthy colleagues suffer with long Covid.
Most secondary teachers also think that secondary pupils SHOULD ALSO wear masks. It's not "we will only wear them in the kids do" it is "we should be allowed to wear them, and the kids should also be made to wear them (barr exemptions)".
It's very simple.

noblegiraffe · 05/12/2020 15:13

Clav has backed herself into a corner.

The usual argument against masks in classrooms is that communication needs to be clear. The most important communicator in the classroom is the teacher (and as Clav says, the individual who talks most) so if you’re arguing to put a mask on the teacher because it’s more important to reduce transmission than communicate clearly (DfE says this is why they should be avoided) then there’s no argument against getting the kids to wear one.

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Clavinova · 05/12/2020 15:20

Why are you not advocating for students to wear masks given that you agree that they reduce the risk of covid transmission?

The evidence is limited as to what extent children are responsible for passing on the virus - however we know for certain that adults do pass it on. You haven't got very far with lobbying the government re pupils wearing masks in the classroom - however teachers are keen to wear them (apparently) - it should be much easier for cantkeepawayforever (for example) to speak to her colleagues and challenge the head at her school regarding masks for staff - thereby reducing the overall risk at her school for everyone. The same approach can be taken with the local authorities and the unions - if teachers all agree they want to wear masks organise it now.

Our risk assessment states - as the DfE guidance states - that it is not necessary for children or teachers to wear masks in schools, and that it is therefore not allowed.

I looked at a small selection of random risk assessments at different schools (mainstream state schools) - 3 said that any pupil or member of staff who wanted to wear a mask could do so and 3 said that masks should not be worn in the classroom - the other 2 said masks were not needed but didn't say staff couldn't wear them.

noblegiraffe · 05/12/2020 15:23

The evidence is limited as to what extent children are responsible for passing on the virus

Only if you’re an idiot. Can you explain why secondary school children are the most infected subset of the population that lockdown has had the least impact on?

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Clavinova · 05/12/2020 15:23

Clav - the only reason teachers are not wearing masks is because they are NOT ALLOWED BY THE DFE.

It's at the discretion of individual heads as far as I am aware.

cantkeepawayforever · 05/12/2020 15:24

So Clav, are you saying that my school's risk assessment doesn't say what it does, because another school's says something different??

Clavinova · 05/12/2020 15:24

noblegiraffe

Either teachers want to wear masks or they don't.

WhyNotMe40 · 05/12/2020 15:24

I looked at a small selection of random risk assessments at different schools (mainstream state schools) - 3 said that any pupil or member of staff who wanted to wear a mask could do so and 3 said that masks should not be worn in the classroom - the other 2 said masks were not needed but didn't say staff couldn't wear them* evidence please.

speak to her colleagues and challenge the head at her school regarding masks for staff - thereby reducing the overall risk at her school for everyone. The same approach can be taken with the local authorities and the unions - if teachers all agree they want to wear masks organise it now
Once more - it's the fucking DfE that has made masks in classrooms "to be avoided". And as schools are assessed on DfE guidance compliance by Ofsted, of course they will follow it!

WhyNotMe40 · 05/12/2020 15:26

Dear lord, it's like arguing with yr9

cantkeepawayforever · 05/12/2020 15:26

The evidence is limited as to what extent children are responsible for passing on the virus

That's like saying my view from June / August shouldn't change - there was little evidence before full school re-opening, but there is any amount of it now. However, as the DfE and others are deliberately not collecting information or deliberately either not publishing it or publishing it in misleading forms, I agree that it is possible for those who are ignorant, or who are determined to spread misinformation, to continue to use the out of date wrong information.

noblegiraffe · 05/12/2020 15:28

Clav you agree that the DfE guidance is wrong and harmful yet you seem intent on blaming teachers for this.

Why is that? No wait, I already know.

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Walkaround · 05/12/2020 15:28

I’m sure the majority of the population would rather not wear masks. It’s a question of whether they slow down/reduce spread of infection, though, and whether they just protect the wearer or everyone else around them. Also, if the most recent data, not the crap from July, indicates that spread is occurring in schools and causing disruption, it’s a question of working out what more could be done to help schools stay open. Why is the DfE so reticent about publishing the wealth of data it must have by now on infections in schools???

Clavinova · 05/12/2020 15:30

cantkeepawayforever
So Clav, are you saying that my school's risk assessment doesn't say what it does

I'm not sure I believe you to be absolutely honest - sorry. I can see that some heads have banned masks - but you claim that all of your colleagues want to wear masks as well.

cantkeepawayforever · 05/12/2020 15:30

@Clavinova

noblegiraffe

Either teachers want to wear masks or they don't.

Whether we want to or not is not the point.

We are not allowed to. Schools are inspected by Ofsted and others on whether we are complying with DfE guidance. Funnily enough, most heads - many scarred and cowed after many years of run-ins with an ignorant, prejudiced and nit-picking inspectorate - will follow DfE guidance to the letter, rather than risking the soul-and-mental-health destroying consequences of in any way stepping out of line.

Walkaround · 05/12/2020 15:31

And why is @Clavinova ignoring the comparisons with advice on masks in other indoor spaces? Does the DfE think mask-free education trumps safety, or doesn’t it?

WhyNotMe40 · 05/12/2020 15:33

I have to say Clav that you are perfectly demonstrating why this government is so inept.
"We declare schools are safe and spend money on publishing that"

"Quick, hide the data! Fudge it!"
Ahem "schools are safe. End of".

  • they (and you) can't admit that they were wrong and that the people who actually know what schools are like (aka despised and lowly teachers and support staff) were right all along. And instead of making it right, they twist and turn and make slippery misquotations to put the blame elsewhere.
cantkeepawayforever · 05/12/2020 15:33

I'm not sure I believe you to be absolutely honest - sorry.

Honestly, that made me laugh out loud. On the basis of a tiny sample of schools, you have declared that the risk assessment in my school is not what i know it to be.

Given you have not been into a school this term, and I doubt your DH has either - all visitors are, rightly, restricted, except in the case of those whose presence is absolutely necessary for the safety and wellbeing of children (ed Psychs, a few social workers) - I wonder which of actually knows what is going on in a school? You, or the teachers here?

noblegiraffe · 05/12/2020 15:35

Here are some calculations based on ONS infection survey data. I calculated the percentage drop in infection rates in the various age groups from the start of lockdown (data only available till 28th Nov but should be a good indicator of overall impact)

Up to Y6 31.3%
Y7-Y11 4%
Y12-age 24 25.1%
25-34 31.5%
35-49 40.8%
50-69 28.7%
70+ 45%

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WhyNotMe40 · 05/12/2020 15:36

@Clavinova

cantkeepawayforever So Clav, are you saying that my school's risk assessment doesn't say what it does

I'm not sure I believe you to be absolutely honest - sorry. I can see that some heads have banned masks - but you claim that all of your colleagues want to wear masks as well.

It is absolutely like arguing with a year 9. "Look, they are doing it!" "Still not allowed" "If they are allowed to, why can't I?" "They are not allowed either* Ad nausaem
itsmymess · 05/12/2020 15:38

We've not had a single case this half term at the 2ndry school I work at. Responsible parenting is key too. Parents encouraged to keep under the weather children at home and limit social activities of teens.

Teachers wear masks in corridors and staff room, visors in lessons. Students masks in corridors and dining room queue. Meetings are on Zoom.

Our school feels very safe and students receiving excellent education.

cantkeepawayforever · 05/12/2020 15:39

That's interesting, Noble.

I am genuinely surprised that the primary group has dropped so much. I wonder it is whether more primary parents were wfh, and all children's activities that miox children from different schools and classes were essentially stopped so despite the contact in school remaining constant, the amount of mixing outside school was significantly less?

walksen · 05/12/2020 15:41

My school allows teachers to wear face shields and/ of masks when circulating the room but you obviously gave to take the mask off when addressing the class from the front.

To ge honest it is hard to say of it has made a difference. We had a third off with covid just before half term and between 5 and 10% off since.

The majority of staff have now been infected so we will probably have some kind of herd immunity for a few months. I'm resigned to catching it again around march or April.

Even people with mild cases are struggling with. Fatigue over a month later. I do worry as I'm struggling to keep up with my workload and I don't know what I will do if I keep catching it. It is fairly obvious that phe / govt/ general public are indifferent to infection rates in school pupils or staff

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