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noblegiraffe wants SAFER schools not closed schools. Do you?

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 01/12/2020 20:19

I'm sure my username in the title will be a red rag to a bull but anyway, if it's there it can't be denied any more. As you'll be aware if you've spent much time on this section, I post regularly about the situation in schools, particularly secondary schools (my patch). Secondary school children are the most infected subset of the population and lack of mitigation measures in schools is causing chaos. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55145313

I have consistently argued for improving mitigation measures in schools in order to reduce transmission, keep schools open for more pupils and to make them safer for teachers, school staff, and vulnerable pupils.

On these threads I have been routinely abused. I've my mental health called into question, my suitability as a teacher, whether I am harming my pupils by being concerned about school safety. I've been questioned as to whether I'm actually a teacher, whether I work for a union or have some secret agenda (aside from my openly stated one to widen awareness of the school situation and my desire for improved safety). The constant refrain has been that I want schools closed. Firstly I was openly told that I wanted schools closed, then that I secretly wanted schools closed. The data I was posting was so bad that it must be a stealth campaign to close schools. That making schools safer is impossible (such a can't-do attitude) so arguing to make them safer is an argument to close them.

And now, there's just this lie constantly posted that there's a massive campaign on MN to close schools. Posts on threads about a 'vocal poster' (i.e. me) who is constantly arguing for this, with an 'echo chamber' of teachers agreeing. It's horseshit.

I think there's a group of posters who see this as a bit of fun. Posting crap and winding up teachers is some sort of weird hobby for them. They have no skin in the game.

But this isn't a game. It's not a hypothetical argument. It's a genuine health and safety issue. I've seen colleagues go down with covid after spending time in classrooms with positive cases. I know a teacher who has been off for months having had it. Fellow teachers on here are catching it. One had to be blue-lighted to hospital. Teachers and school workers are in intensive care or sadly dying. We don't know how many, because this data isn't being published. We don't know how many teachers are off school, because the DfE have deliberately stopped publishing that data.

The situation in schools is not safe. It can be made safer. If you think 'but my school is safe, we've had no/few cases', then please be aware of how quickly things can change, and maybe getting preventative measures in beforehand might be desirable.

My top wish list is:

Mass testing in schools. Particularly when there is a positive case the whole bubble should be tested, to enable effective and targeted isolation and to flush out asymptomatic cases.

Scrapping the policy of only sending home close contacts. It's not working. Relying on children with covid to display the three main adult symptoms is pathetically unreliable as a way of identifying cases and isolating at-risk students. Testing should replace this.

Masks in secondary classrooms (with obvious exemptions and workarounds where needed. This is managed internationally, why should we not be able to?).

Funding for schools to improve ventilation where inadequate and for extra heating to keep the windows open.

No fines for ECV families.

Transparency around schools data, regularly published so the government can be held properly to account.

I don't want schools to close. I want them to be made safer so that they stay open longer to more pupils. If you agree with the premise, parent or teacher, even if you have a different wish list of how to achieve this, please post in support.

Thank you.

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Thread gallery
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MilesJuppIsAnOldSlutOnJunk · 04/12/2020 20:51

@herecomesthsun I'm hoping you'll be one of the first in line to get the vaccine, as you qualify on at least two counts. Thought of you when they published the list!

I do think this reticence to discuss the issue in the press is linked to the way caring roles are seen. Women's roles.

I know that caring is not the primary function of a teacher, but I'll bet that's how it's seen by the boys club in the HOC.

mrshoho · 04/12/2020 22:15

Hope it all goes to plan @herecomesthsun. Our experience was a long drawn out process and that was before covid appeared on the scene.

If the government was truly concerned about the mental health of children and young people there would be more more resources put into these services.

Agree @MilesJuppIsMyBitch. The thinking that schools are open, kids are being looked after so nothing more is needed to be done as schools get left to do it all.

LurkingLurking2020 · 04/12/2020 23:06

@Cookiecrisps

I’ve just seen on my SM that there will be a parliamentary debate about schools and COVID infections on Monday 7th Dec.
Indeed
lonelyplanet · 05/12/2020 08:50

I don't hold out much hope of anything useful being discussed. On this link you can see what documents and petitions they are looking at:

www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/commons-business-briefings-future-business/

One of the documents which describes the impact on children was written in July and is completely out of date.

I just hope they have a proper debate on the exams next year. The current proposals are so unfair to disadvantaged students and will give wealthy families an even bigger step up.

middleager · 05/12/2020 09:39

Lonely just looked at that and don't hold out much hope either.

The July 20 document talks about low transmission rates in schools and how children more likely to catch it from adults. It's outdated and incorrect.

I've written to my MP three times to point out that it is being transmitted in school as 10% of my child's class have it, children coming into school after testing positive. And cases at both my children's secondaries are sky high.

Walkaround · 05/12/2020 09:41

@lonelyplanet

I don't hold out much hope of anything useful being discussed. On this link you can see what documents and petitions they are looking at:

www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/commons-business-briefings-future-business/

One of the documents which describes the impact on children was written in July and is completely out of date.

I just hope they have a proper debate on the exams next year. The current proposals are so unfair to disadvantaged students and will give wealthy families an even bigger step up.

@lonelyplanet - wow, that’s ridiculous! It admits data on infections is still being collected from schools, but none of the recent data is included! How can there be a proper debate on that?!
wondersun · 05/12/2020 09:44

The debate system is a farce. It is not a debate it is a lecture on their current policies. Of course they turn you-tube comments off to avoid any feedback.

A cowardly approach from a government that knows its bullying children, parents and teachers into dangerous schools but feels pretty confident that it can get away with it until Spring.

Families need to vote with their feet if they have safeguarding concerns for their own children. What magistrates court is going to have time or the desire to prosecute parents in these circumstances.

Headteachers and doctors are being prevented from speaking freely. Parents are the only ones left. Very sad times.

The only upside I can see is the long term win of no Tory government for years and years after this. A complete corrupt, self serving mess.

Sorry for any offence. I’m a bit disillusioned and angry at the moment.

Walkaround · 05/12/2020 10:13

I want schools to say open - I agree there are so many important reasons for doing this. However, I want this done with honesty, and with proper support. Society is utterly crap at recognising that what is important, even vital, to a properly functioning society, needs more support from society instead of constantly being shat on from a great height.

monkeytennis97 · 05/12/2020 10:22

@wondersun

The debate system is a farce. It is not a debate it is a lecture on their current policies. Of course they turn you-tube comments off to avoid any feedback.

A cowardly approach from a government that knows its bullying children, parents and teachers into dangerous schools but feels pretty confident that it can get away with it until Spring.

Families need to vote with their feet if they have safeguarding concerns for their own children. What magistrates court is going to have time or the desire to prosecute parents in these circumstances.

Headteachers and doctors are being prevented from speaking freely. Parents are the only ones left. Very sad times.

The only upside I can see is the long term win of no Tory government for years and years after this. A complete corrupt, self serving mess.

Sorry for any offence. I’m a bit disillusioned and angry at the moment.

This. 100%. Only parents have the power to take their kids out. Our unions are toothless.
WhyNotMe40 · 05/12/2020 10:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cantkeepawayforever · 05/12/2020 13:33

Siorry, coming back to this after a couple of days and can't decide whether to laugh or be outraged by the fact that Clav has quoted a post from August as a way to try to discredit my current views on mask wearing in schools, including by teachers.

As a former scientist, I know that when further evidence appears, re-evaluating any theory or viewpoint in the light of the new evidence is exactly the right thing to do.

I posted in August - pretty much the lowest point in the pandemic so far - that I would prefer not to teach in a mask.

Funnily enough, the evidence from 12 weeks of teaching through a the second wave has caused me to re-evaluate this.....

noblegiraffe · 05/12/2020 14:10

Desperate, isn’t it, cant?

What I’ve noticed from this thread is lots of support for safer schools from both teachers and parents, including many poster names I don’t recognise from previous threads.

The only dissenting voices appear to have zero experience of the schools chaos caused by covid, particularly in secondary.

I’ve not seen any posts saying ‘my kid is on their 4th period of self-isolation but I think masks in classrooms would be more disruptive to their education’.

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Clavinova · 05/12/2020 14:20

cantkeepawayforever
Sorry, coming back to this after a couple of days and can't decide whether to laugh or be outraged by the fact that Clav has quoted a post from August as a way to try to discredit my current views on mask wearing in schools, including by teachers.

But you also made what seems like a contradictory post on this thread;

"My TA and I are only together in the classroom."^
"We do not have access to any communal rooms within the school for e.g. eating lunch, and there is nowhere else we would meet."
"So should I be wearing a mask in the classroom because i am 'around my TA' there?"

(In reply to - "I think TAs and teachers should wear masks around each other")

Have your views changed since this post (June) as well?

"Masks aren't a practical option for teaching in, though, simply because it is so hard for children to hear what a teacher is saying through them. Visors?"

noblegiraffe · 05/12/2020 14:23

Clav why are you in favour of teachers wearing masks in the classroom but not the kids? Specifically secondary.

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noblegiraffe · 05/12/2020 14:29

I saw MNHQ post this on another thread “We'd just like to remind everyone we take a dim view of posts suggesting that it's wrong to implement measures that enable people with disabilities to live a full life.”

Which made me wonder why it is acceptable to post that it is wrong to implement measures that would make schools safer and enable children of ECV families live a more normal life including school attendance.

That schools are so unsafe in this pandemic that some families have had to withdraw their children to protect themselves is so, so shocking and yet some don’t seem to give a shit.

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Clavinova · 05/12/2020 14:39

Clav why are you in favour of teachers wearing masks in the classroom but not the kids? Specifically secondary.

cantkeepawayforever is a primary school teacher of course.

Why does it have to be conditional that kids wear masks for teachers to wear masks? There is no doubt that adults pass on the infection - that's not in dispute - and the 'super spreader' in Israel a few months back was a teacher.

Extract from the Spanish study linked to by another poster yesterday;

"The dynamics of transmission via aerosols in the classroom change completely depending on whether the infected person–or patient zero–is a student or a teacher. Teachers talk far more than students and raise their voices to be heard, which multiplies the expulsion of potentially contagious particles. In comparison, an infected student will only speak occasionally."

noblegiraffe · 05/12/2020 14:42

Why does it have to be conditional that kids wear masks for teachers to wear masks?

I didn’t say that. I have asked that if you agree masks confer protection and are therefore of use in the classroom, why would you only have one person wearing a mask and not all?

I don’t understand that logic, please could you explain?

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noblegiraffe · 05/12/2020 14:43

If you’re going to comment that a student speaks less often than a teacher, you are forgetting to multiply by 30.

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Clavinova · 05/12/2020 14:51

I don’t understand that logic, please could you explain?

Seems obvious to me - if teachers all agree that they should wear masks in the classroom (you tell me that's the case) then it should be very easy to make that happen - why not do it straight away?

cantkeepawayforever · 05/12/2020 14:54

@Clavinova

I don’t understand that logic, please could you explain?

Seems obvious to me - if teachers all agree that they should wear masks in the classroom (you tell me that's the case) then it should be very easy to make that happen - why not do it straight away?

Because I am not allowed to.

Our risk assessment states - as the DfE guidance states - that it is not necessary for children or teachers to wear masks in schools, and that it is therefore not allowed.

Walkaround · 05/12/2020 14:55

@Clavinova - do you think kids wearing masks in the corridors is a waste of time? After all, they’re only kids. And why do most people comply with this now? Because they chose to, or because Government mandated it in most secondary schools in the UK?

noblegiraffe · 05/12/2020 14:55

You’re still avoiding the question Clav

Why are you not advocating for students to wear masks given that you agree that they reduce the risk of covid transmission?

I’m not talking about individual actions, I’m talking policy.

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Walkaround · 05/12/2020 14:56

What about adults wearing masks in shops, theatres, etc, etc. How did that come about, I wonder?...

cantkeepawayforever · 05/12/2020 14:58

The post you have quoted about me and my TA was when you were giving the impression that you were against mask-wearing in schools.

Now I understand that - for some very obscure reason - you think that all ADULTS should wear mask but no CHILDREN or TEENAGERS should, then I agree with you up to a point: my TA and I should wear masks (with see through inserts). Where I think i disagree with you is AND SO SHOULD ALL MY PUPILS.

If I have still misunderstood, and you are in favour of EVERYONE wearing masks in schools full time, then that's fine, and of course we should all lobby for it, including for all academies, free schools and other institutions answering only to the Secretary of State rather than local authorities.

Walkaround · 05/12/2020 15:00

I wonder how many people would be wearing masks in supermarkets if Government advice was, “we do not advise the wearing of masks in supermarkets.”