noblegiraffe wants SAFER schools not closed schools. Do you?

[noblegiraffe]

I'm sure my username in the title will be a red rag to a bull but anyway, if it's there it can't be denied any more. As you'll be aware if you've spent much time on this section, I post regularly about the situation in schools, particularly secondary schools (my patch). Secondary school children are the most infected subset of the population and lack of mitigation measures in schools is causing chaos. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55145313

I have consistently argued for improving mitigation measures in schools in order to reduce transmission, keep schools open for more pupils and to make them safer for teachers, school staff, and vulnerable pupils.

On these threads I have been routinely abused. I've my mental health called into question, my suitability as a teacher, whether I am harming my pupils by being concerned about school safety. I've been questioned as to whether I'm actually a teacher, whether I work for a union or have some secret agenda (aside from my openly stated one to widen awareness of the school situation and my desire for improved safety). The constant refrain has been that I want schools closed. Firstly I was openly told that I wanted schools closed, then that I secretly wanted schools closed. The data I was posting was so bad that it must be a stealth campaign to close schools. That making schools safer is impossible (such a can't-do attitude) so arguing to make them safer is an argument to close them.

And now, there's just this lie constantly posted that there's a massive campaign on MN to close schools. Posts on threads about a 'vocal poster' (i.e. me) who is constantly arguing for this, with an 'echo chamber' of teachers agreeing. It's horseshit.

I think there's a group of posters who see this as a bit of fun. Posting crap and winding up teachers is some sort of weird hobby for them. They have no skin in the game.

But this isn't a game. It's not a hypothetical argument. It's a genuine health and safety issue. I've seen colleagues go down with covid after spending time in classrooms with positive cases. I know a teacher who has been off for months having had it. Fellow teachers on here are catching it. One had to be blue-lighted to hospital. Teachers and school workers are in intensive care or sadly dying. We don't know how many, because this data isn't being published. We don't know how many teachers are off school, because the DfE have deliberately stopped publishing that data.

The situation in schools is not safe. It can be made safer. If you think 'but my school is safe, we've had no/few cases', then please be aware of how quickly things can change, and maybe getting preventative measures in beforehand might be desirable.

My top wish list is:

Mass testing in schools. Particularly when there is a positive case the whole bubble should be tested, to enable effective and targeted isolation and to flush out asymptomatic cases.

Scrapping the policy of only sending home close contacts. It's not working. Relying on children with covid to display the three main adult symptoms is pathetically unreliable as a way of identifying cases and isolating at-risk students. Testing should replace this.

Masks in secondary classrooms (with obvious exemptions and workarounds where needed. This is managed internationally, why should we not be able to?).

Funding for schools to improve ventilation where inadequate and for extra heating to keep the windows open.

No fines for ECV families.

Transparency around schools data, regularly published so the government can be held properly to account.

I don't want schools to close. I want them to be made safer so that they stay open longer to more pupils. If you agree with the premise, parent or teacher, even if you have a different wish list of how to achieve this, please post in support.

Thank you.

Our risk assessment also echoes DfE guidance: no PPE to be worn in classrooms. The headteacher won’t budge (even to allow clear visors) despite several requests. This is in Primary. Currently one member of staff off with Covid (a TA) and several isolating due to positives within their families.

You shouldn't be annoyed.

Clav this is where you are going wrong. You think that teachers will be annoyed, but if you read my OP, masks in secondary classrooms is on my wish list. Teachers want schools to be safer. We can see covid transmission in our classrooms. This isn’t some game with unions v government this is a simple and reasonable request for safety measures that will help prevent deaths, illness and long term consequences in a pandemic. Our working situation is illegal outside the school gates.

You can see from this thread that there is plenty of support here. A populist government should take note.

The end of August is a lifetime ago in the story of covid and secondary schools Clavinova.

At the end of August, rates of positive cases were rising but the death rate was in single figures each day. There was a general sense that testing was identifying more cases and we knew a lot more about how to treat the virus.

Since September, the combination of schools and other educational institutions returning and the colder weather has sent the number of cases and deaths sky rocketing, all over northern Europe.

Statistics wise, schools had managed well in the summer term, partly because of the warmer weather and partly because fewer than half the children were in them.

They're not managing well now by any measure. It's very evident that secondary schools in particular are the main places of transmission of the virus.

It's sensible to change your view about risk assessment and strategies to manage it as a situation develops. Unfortunately, the government have been more than a few yards behind the pace where schools are concerned and do have blood on their hands.

You're doing sterling work, Noble!

I'm teaching in the ME & we have all the things you're asking for. Mind you, we have bugger all control of the huge parties taking place at weekends, & it's generally those that are KO'ing year groups.

They're in & out quite a LOT - but we are a posh school with hot & cold running MacBooks & we are shit hot at distance learning. Not luxuries available at most U.K. state schools.

It's just completely unintelligible to anyone on the international circuit that U.K. schools are claimed to be 'safe'. There's probably no more relevant example of Not Safe Situation than 20-35 young people in a confined poorly ventilated space, not wearing masks, & swapping between groups hourly on congested corridors.

If you built a virtual viral simulator & tried to max out its spread - if you were 100 per cent Team Go Virus Yay - then you would do exactly & precisely what is being done in U.K. schools.

Sorry U.K. schools.

There's probably no more relevant example of Not Safe Situation than 20-35 young people in a confined poorly ventilated space, not wearing masks, & swapping between groups hourly on congested corridors.

Yep. It's so incredibly obvious that it's hard to fathom why a small number of MNers obsessively post as if it isn't the case, and that school staff and concerned parents are just big wusses.

I’ve just, out of interest, calculated the rate per 100,000 of teachers who have tested positive for covid in my school (I have no idea about cleaners or wider support or office staff).

It’s over 10,000 per 100,000.

I genuinely can’t believe it.

And Clav thinks teachers might be annoyed at having to wear masks.

if you were 100 per cent Team Go Virus Yay - then you would do exactly & precisely what is being done in U.K. schools.

Yeah that’s what I asked on another thread, Crowy. If the government actively wanted to spread covid through schools more efficiently than now, but still not openly, what exactly would they do differently?

I can’t think of anything.

From what I have heard from my teens today even if the kids were all told to wear masks it wouldn't necessarily happen anyway. Mine are at a 'good' state school in Surrey but lots of the kids refuse to wear masks in the communal areas, drop batteries in the hand sanitizer so the school removed them and behaviour in general is getting worse (probably down to lack of their normal teachers as so many are self isolating). According to dd most of the kids don't care about covid. They have windows open for ventilation and have to go outside at breaks but end up huddling together under the sheltered area as it's bloody cold and raining.

Hah, my maths has been bugging me, the rate per 100,000 is normally over a week isn’t it? It’s more like 2000 recently.

I think if Clav's DH is important in education he could find out some relevant statistics that are being withheld from us commoners.
Such as rate of all teachers in England absence. And secondary school teachers especially.
Death rate amongst teachers, and secondary school teachers especially.
Covid infection rate amongst teachers, especially in secondary school teachers.
And all of these for this autumn term.
I know the rest of us do not have access to this data, but I strongly suspect from what I have observed (SW city, previously tier 1, low rates) that teachers have at least double the above for a comparable sample of the local population.

Are there any other non-UK based MNers who can offer perspective UK secondary schools a covid management?

Corvus's posts sweeps away all the nit-picking ('did you talk to another member of staff without a mask today?') and puts the utter disregard that the government has for health and safety in schools into stark relief.

My ds in Australia literally couldn't believe the 5 day Xmas bubbles plan. She thought I'd misunderstood. When I was telling her, I hadn't realised that some UK schools ended term on 22nd Dec. I think she would have needed smelling salts to cope with that particular piece of information.

I’m pretty sure my local rate hasn’t been anything like 2000.

If the government had reassuring data to publish, they wouldn’t have published that fiddled data about teacher infection rates.

Clav will argue that the teachers are giving it to each other but it’s spread out over the departments at my school.

I've just received my Covid Messenger emails noblegiraffe.

In my and my mum's local area, both tier 2, rates are 10x *less than 2000 per 10,00 ie 133 in 10,000.

A quick glance at the Financial Times Covid Tracker tells me that the overall per 100K in the UK has fallen from a peak of 38 per 100k mid-November to 22 cases per 100K on 2nd Dec.

So teachers in your area around10 times more likely to have tested positive, let alone asymptomatic cases, than the general population.

Nothing to see here.

My maths! I meant 133 in 100, 000!

I’ve just seen on my SM that there will be a parliamentary debate about schools and COVID infections on Monday 7th Dec.

@Cookiecrisps
It’s just about exams from what I was reading yesterday, not the impact on schools as a whole

My Son's state secondary seems to have changed tack with regard to sending home whole classes/year groups. This week we have had emails each day advising of a 'single' confirmed case involving a few school members having to isolate. So 4 single cases in a week and half expecting another email today. How many single cases before any plan to mass test? It's a fairly small state school and have no idea whether it's staff or pupils that are involved. They advised after half term that masks were required in all indoor areas but my Son said it's not always being followed by all.

Ah that’s frustrating. They should be discussing COVID transmission in schools but as we all know they’re trying to cover that up.

mrshoho there are no plans whatsoever to mass or routinely test the most infected subset of the population ie secondary school aged children.

It's defies belief Christina. I cannot understand why when there appears to be more access to testing now if required. I've pushed my Son into going in today as he has missed quite a few days this term, but now sitting here feeling guilty.

The rules are ridiculous- for example, a family I know with 3 children. 2 in primary, 1 in adjoining nursery.

nursery teacher catches COVID and all nursery children are told to isolate.

Clear instructions from the primary that the other 2 children can attend school, no need to to isolate- surely they are at risk of spreading to their 2 class bubbles??

I really feel for all teaching staff, and utmost respect to you.

My local authority are offering rapid tests to anyone who wants one.

But they are only available between the our of 9am and 2pm.

@Comefromaway

My local authority are offering rapid tests to anyone who wants one.

But they are only available between the our of 9am and 2pm.

Even I agree that's ridiculous!

@christinarossetti19

Are there any other non-UK based MNers who can offer perspective UK secondary schools a covid management?

Corvus's posts sweeps away all the nit-picking ('did you talk to another member of staff without a mask today?') and puts the utter disregard that the government has for health and safety in schools into stark relief.

My ds in Australia literally couldn't believe the 5 day Xmas bubbles plan. She thought I'd misunderstood. When I was telling her, I hadn't realised that some UK schools ended term on 22nd Dec. I think she would have needed smelling salts to cope with that particular piece of information.

I have family in Cyprus and back in September they were mass testing in schools as a matter of course and it made the news that many asymptomatic cases were picked up that way.

They have just recently been through a lockdown where their lyceums (Year 10 and above) were closed but rest of the year groups still open. Coming out of that now but still pretty strict measures in place.

My niece is in their primary stage and my nephew equivalent of year 9. They both each have their own desks that they stay at. Masks on. And still regular testing and they finish school at 1:30pm and have lunch at home (snack earlier in day at school) and stay at home to do their homework etc.
Neither is particularly traumatised by these measures.

Cyprus have had, since the beginning, just under 11,000 positive cases and 49 deaths in total....

Isn’t that a standard school day more or less in Cyprus? Early start, early finish?