noblegiraffe wants SAFER schools not closed schools. Do you?

[noblegiraffe]

I'm sure my username in the title will be a red rag to a bull but anyway, if it's there it can't be denied any more. As you'll be aware if you've spent much time on this section, I post regularly about the situation in schools, particularly secondary schools (my patch). Secondary school children are the most infected subset of the population and lack of mitigation measures in schools is causing chaos. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55145313

I have consistently argued for improving mitigation measures in schools in order to reduce transmission, keep schools open for more pupils and to make them safer for teachers, school staff, and vulnerable pupils.

On these threads I have been routinely abused. I've my mental health called into question, my suitability as a teacher, whether I am harming my pupils by being concerned about school safety. I've been questioned as to whether I'm actually a teacher, whether I work for a union or have some secret agenda (aside from my openly stated one to widen awareness of the school situation and my desire for improved safety). The constant refrain has been that I want schools closed. Firstly I was openly told that I wanted schools closed, then that I secretly wanted schools closed. The data I was posting was so bad that it must be a stealth campaign to close schools. That making schools safer is impossible (such a can't-do attitude) so arguing to make them safer is an argument to close them.

And now, there's just this lie constantly posted that there's a massive campaign on MN to close schools. Posts on threads about a 'vocal poster' (i.e. me) who is constantly arguing for this, with an 'echo chamber' of teachers agreeing. It's horseshit.

I think there's a group of posters who see this as a bit of fun. Posting crap and winding up teachers is some sort of weird hobby for them. They have no skin in the game.

But this isn't a game. It's not a hypothetical argument. It's a genuine health and safety issue. I've seen colleagues go down with covid after spending time in classrooms with positive cases. I know a teacher who has been off for months having had it. Fellow teachers on here are catching it. One had to be blue-lighted to hospital. Teachers and school workers are in intensive care or sadly dying. We don't know how many, because this data isn't being published. We don't know how many teachers are off school, because the DfE have deliberately stopped publishing that data.

The situation in schools is not safe. It can be made safer. If you think 'but my school is safe, we've had no/few cases', then please be aware of how quickly things can change, and maybe getting preventative measures in beforehand might be desirable.

My top wish list is:

Mass testing in schools. Particularly when there is a positive case the whole bubble should be tested, to enable effective and targeted isolation and to flush out asymptomatic cases.

Scrapping the policy of only sending home close contacts. It's not working. Relying on children with covid to display the three main adult symptoms is pathetically unreliable as a way of identifying cases and isolating at-risk students. Testing should replace this.

Masks in secondary classrooms (with obvious exemptions and workarounds where needed. This is managed internationally, why should we not be able to?).

Funding for schools to improve ventilation where inadequate and for extra heating to keep the windows open.

No fines for ECV families.

Transparency around schools data, regularly published so the government can be held properly to account.

I don't want schools to close. I want them to be made safer so that they stay open longer to more pupils. If you agree with the premise, parent or teacher, even if you have a different wish list of how to achieve this, please post in support.

Thank you.

And what about state school shared toilet facilities?

The boys I know at boarding school share the same showers, have access to a kitchen - so using the same fridge, kettle, toaster, bread, butter, order takeaways and shop/eat in the nearby town.

@BooksAreNotEssentialInWales

Well as according to this thread it has already spread like wildfire through staff and pupils, most should now be immune. Good news...or alternatively we accept the many reports that children are not massive spreaders and prioritise education, safeguarding and child development. In fact, surely teachers would want these things even if it meant some risk. Since Covid we have entered a parallel universe where only one thing matters. It’s not safe or proportional.

Ah - some honesty at last. So, we’re going for herd immunity for school staff and a few unfortunate deaths and long term problems for the vulnerable staff and families who got covid through school. So long as long term financial compensation is given to those put deliberately in harm’s way without adequate safety measures, for the good of society. Oh - sorry - no, it doesn’t appear to work like that.

My link from Ireland earlier;

"Staff rooms a key risk for spread of Covid-19 in schools, health officials warn."

It’s nice that you keep posting that but it’s irrelevant to the staff rooms that are closed in the majority of schools over here.

Currently in my school, the staff room has been turned into a classroom.

Staff eat lunch by themselves (some have even been assigned large stationery cupboards to eat in as we ran out of space to separate staff)

I still have contracted Covid through school. It wasn’t the staff room that was my risk factor....

ChloeDecker
Oh, ok. That’s the guidelines there. I still don’t see why you previously made the point that screens had to equal no talking if they were introduced in schools. They don’t.

I made the point that you can't look at Covid interventions in isolation - you can't say that plastic screens make schools safer in South Korea if pupils are not allowed to talk to each other when sitting behind those screens, even when eating their lunch.

@Clavinova

And what about state school shared toilet facilities?

The boys I know at boarding school share the same showers, have access to a kitchen - so using the same fridge, kettle, toaster, bread, butter, order takeaways and shop/eat in the nearby town.

So there are no cleaning staff in boarding houses, then, and the boys are having to shower and eat in dangerous, overcrowded conditions, incapable of even washing their hands if they touch the same kettle? I can see why it’s spreading like wildfire at Eton, then!

I made the point that you can't look at Covid interventions in isolation

It’s always very difficult to know what your points are due to your habit of just posting quotes and links with little context. I do try to understand what you always write, I do! You just don’t make it very easy.

ChloeDecker

I think I remember Piggywaspushed posting that staff at her school were too often chatting by the photocopier. Another poster told us that 5 out of 6 staff members in the same department were infected - it seems obvious to me that at least one of them passed the infection on to the others.

I swear only a few pages back clav yous aid kids weren't spreading it. It now appears they are, but only in boarding schools.

Otherwise, it is only teachers.

FWIW , I think more effort should be made to keep staff apart but it is hardly surprising if they have a slightly resigned attitude to being able to maintain any SD at all in crowded school buildings. the DfE guidelines should absolutely INSIST that staff meetings don't take place, that paired duties do not occur (mentioned in your Irish link) and that staffs in shared offices mask up.

We have had 4 students and five staff members confirmed as cases. None of the staff cases triggered the SI of another staff member.

However, JVT's briefing yesterday made it very very clear that schools are what he would call a hazardous place.

Walkaround

I don't know any current boys at Eton - the boys I know (at two different boarding schools) live in the same 'household' - just like a large family.

One of the guests on NewsNight some months ago (I can't remember which organisation he represented) said he thought the biggest infection risk to nurses at that time were other nurses and he was going to investigate staff interaction during rest breaks.

So because someone once said something on telly about nurses, that means infections can’t happen in classrooms?

Clutching at straws.

And , yes, you are tight, i do point hat out. But that does not cancel out the risks in the corridors and the classrooms. It is another, more controllable risk. Some teachers get right on my wick. Funnily enough, teachers are people, some of whom are more oblivious and more gung ho than others. A weak SLT and wishy washy guidelines don't help.

So because someone once said something on telly about nurses, that means infections can’t happen in classrooms?

No - I didn't say that - but I can see teachers making excuses why they shouldn't have to wear a mask. Does noblegiraffe wear a mask at school? I hope she does.

@Clavinova

So because someone once said something on telly about nurses, that means infections can’t happen in classrooms?

No - I didn't say that - but I can see teachers making excuses why they shouldn't have to wear a mask. Does noblegiraffe wear a mask at school? I hope she does.

I am NOT ALLOWED to wear a mask at school (primary). Totally forbidden by SLT. I have lobbied hard, but no.

I think I remember Piggywaspushed posting that staff at her school were too often chatting by the photocopier. Another poster told us that 5 out of 6 staff members in the same department were infected - it seems obvious to me that at least one of them passed the infection on to the others.

But photocopiers are not staff rooms and there could be other reasons for that 5-6 spread. To victim blame solely on staff rooms (which was your original point and you did not mention other circumstances at that point) is unfair, unfounded and unhelpful.

My point still stands that the closing of staffrooms doesn’t automatically protect teachers as I can vouch for that personally.
Just like your point about screens on their own not being enough, the whole point of this thread is to want a range of safety measures made compulsory in schools (different measures may be needed depending on age group etc) in order to reduce the risk of infection spread and schools having to close.

@Clavinova - do you include primary school teachers in this? Should they wear masks in the classroom and not just everywhere else in the school?

but I can see teachers making excuses why they shouldn't have to wear a mask

Where did you read that?

@Clavinova

I note you are carefully avoiding touching on the subject of students wearing masks all day.

Easier for the unions to influence school staff first surely - or don't teachers want to wear masks?

At my primary we are not allowed to wear masks in the classroom, the most crowded place in school with no SD between teacher and pupils, because of the government guidance. This includes CEV teachers. It’s ridiculous. Parents must wear masks at pick up time but staff are not allowed to. If you do against the head then your life is made much harder in school.

That’s not an excuse BTW. It’s allowed because of the guidance. I would wear a mask if allowed.

It’s baffling.

I said I didn’t understand how teachers could be infecting each other as they didn’t spend time with each other in staff rooms etc. This was countered by evidence from a different country - where presumably staffrooms are open - saying staff pass the virus on in such places.
I can only think of two explanations, the first being that the poster is too dim to realise that their evidence is irrelevant, and the other being that they think other posters are too dim to notice.

On another note, there was an interesting Q&A session regarding vaccines on Today this morning where both the experts (Clare Gerada and Peter Openshaw, I think) had things to say about schools, namely that PHE were behind the game when it came to acknowledging and dealing with infections in schools, and that teachers were the “unsung heroes (heroines) of the pandemic.

Teachers and TAs could be infecting each other in the classroom as it is difficult to move around 30 children in a small space. Ventilation helps but you are still breathing in the same shared air if the windows don’t open far enough.

@Clavinova

So because someone once said something on telly about nurses, that means infections can’t happen in classrooms?

No - I didn't say that - but I can see teachers making excuses why they shouldn't have to wear a mask. Does noblegiraffe wear a mask at school? I hope she does.

I wear a mask everywhere I am ALLOWED to. But it seems a bit pointless sometimes when I have to take it off in the classroom, when I teach up to 150 students a day in over crowded poorly ventilated classrooms. Our staffroom is closed - we eat lunch in various corners or outside.

@Clavinova

ChloeDecker

I think I remember Piggywaspushed posting that staff at her school were too often chatting by the photocopier. Another poster told us that 5 out of 6 staff members in the same department were infected - it seems obvious to me that at least one of them passed the infection on to the others.

A good example of the post hoc fallacy in action. In fact I think I’ll use this example in a lesson.

“5 out of 6 teachers in a department have contracted Coronavirus. Ms Green had it first so she must have infected the others. What do you think?” Happily my learners will be bright enough to suggest that, while it might be true, alternatively they might each have caught it independently from different children they teach, especially if prevalence in the school is high and those teachers do not share spaces with one another.

What Clav has done is come onto this thread about school safety and talked about teachers wearing masks because she thinks that teachers wouldn't want to do that. That's why it's the only thing she has said should be implemented. She's cobbled together some stuff about teacher infections being caused by other teachers, but unfortunately forgot that it comes from countries where the children wear masks. Given that she is pro masks, she will find it hard to argue that the kids shouldn't be wearing them, hence the continued banging on about teachers 'making excuses not to wear them'. (the DfE says their use in classrooms should be avoided, so that is ultimately down to the DfE to change - schools are following the guidance after all).

What she has inadvertently done is acknowledge that schools could, and should be made safer. Thanks for your support, Clav

Walkaround
do you include primary school teachers in this? Should they wear masks in the classroom and not just everywhere else in the school?

Probably - perhaps not reception/year 1.

borntobequiet
I said I didn’t understand how teachers could be infecting each other as they didn’t spend time with each other in staff rooms etc. This was countered by evidence from a different country - where presumably staffrooms are open - saying staff pass the virus on in such places.

Quite clearly some staffrooms and/or workrooms are open even if capacity is reduced - I've read at least half a dozen previous posts confirming this including one today.

cantkeepawayforever
I am NOT ALLOWED to wear a mask at school (primary). Totally forbidden by SLT. I have lobbied hard, but no.

You should lobby your local council - MidLothian Council stepped in with recommendations. Do your colleagues want to wear masks?

You should lobby your local council - MidLothian Council stepped in with recommendations. Do your colleagues want to wear masks?

Yes to the latter. Academy, is my answer to the first - and a standalone one at that.