noblegiraffe wants SAFER schools not closed schools. Do you?

[noblegiraffe]

I'm sure my username in the title will be a red rag to a bull but anyway, if it's there it can't be denied any more. As you'll be aware if you've spent much time on this section, I post regularly about the situation in schools, particularly secondary schools (my patch). Secondary school children are the most infected subset of the population and lack of mitigation measures in schools is causing chaos. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55145313

I have consistently argued for improving mitigation measures in schools in order to reduce transmission, keep schools open for more pupils and to make them safer for teachers, school staff, and vulnerable pupils.

On these threads I have been routinely abused. I've my mental health called into question, my suitability as a teacher, whether I am harming my pupils by being concerned about school safety. I've been questioned as to whether I'm actually a teacher, whether I work for a union or have some secret agenda (aside from my openly stated one to widen awareness of the school situation and my desire for improved safety). The constant refrain has been that I want schools closed. Firstly I was openly told that I wanted schools closed, then that I secretly wanted schools closed. The data I was posting was so bad that it must be a stealth campaign to close schools. That making schools safer is impossible (such a can't-do attitude) so arguing to make them safer is an argument to close them.

And now, there's just this lie constantly posted that there's a massive campaign on MN to close schools. Posts on threads about a 'vocal poster' (i.e. me) who is constantly arguing for this, with an 'echo chamber' of teachers agreeing. It's horseshit.

I think there's a group of posters who see this as a bit of fun. Posting crap and winding up teachers is some sort of weird hobby for them. They have no skin in the game.

But this isn't a game. It's not a hypothetical argument. It's a genuine health and safety issue. I've seen colleagues go down with covid after spending time in classrooms with positive cases. I know a teacher who has been off for months having had it. Fellow teachers on here are catching it. One had to be blue-lighted to hospital. Teachers and school workers are in intensive care or sadly dying. We don't know how many, because this data isn't being published. We don't know how many teachers are off school, because the DfE have deliberately stopped publishing that data.

The situation in schools is not safe. It can be made safer. If you think 'but my school is safe, we've had no/few cases', then please be aware of how quickly things can change, and maybe getting preventative measures in beforehand might be desirable.

My top wish list is:

Mass testing in schools. Particularly when there is a positive case the whole bubble should be tested, to enable effective and targeted isolation and to flush out asymptomatic cases.

Scrapping the policy of only sending home close contacts. It's not working. Relying on children with covid to display the three main adult symptoms is pathetically unreliable as a way of identifying cases and isolating at-risk students. Testing should replace this.

Masks in secondary classrooms (with obvious exemptions and workarounds where needed. This is managed internationally, why should we not be able to?).

Funding for schools to improve ventilation where inadequate and for extra heating to keep the windows open.

No fines for ECV families.

Transparency around schools data, regularly published so the government can be held properly to account.

I don't want schools to close. I want them to be made safer so that they stay open longer to more pupils. If you agree with the premise, parent or teacher, even if you have a different wish list of how to achieve this, please post in support.

Thank you.

@IloveJKRowling

In Spain all children from age 6 wear masks (yes, in the classroom!).

So if the teachers aren't wearing masks all the time, that would explain the assertion (if true) that Spanish teachers are infecting kids but not vice versa. Because the kids are wearing masks all the time.

Children here aren't wearing masks so there's nothing to stop them spreading it.

No it’s not to do with masks. It’s because teachers talk for a large proportion of the lesson and with a raised voice so they produce aerosols. The article was in El Pais based on the evidence of spread

Covid is spreading in schools. Staff and children^ are getting it. We are more likely to know when a member of staff gets it as they are much more likely to get the symptoms that trigger a test.

If we do not do mass testing in schools, we could assume that spread is mainly among staff, however that would be a very shaky conclusion.

We know where private schools have done mass testing, they've uncovered lots of asymptomatic cases in students.

@noblegiraffe

Covid is spreading in schools. Staff and children^ are getting it. We are more likely to know when a member of staff gets it as they are much more likely to get the symptoms that trigger a test.

If we do not do mass testing in schools, we could assume that spread is mainly among staff, however that would be a very shaky conclusion.

We know where private schools have done mass testing, they've uncovered lots of asymptomatic cases in students.

Is that testing info in the public domain?

Personally think it’s going to spread every permutation of staff/child depending on the set up and how well people stick to the rules. If the teacher has it they are more likely to infect a large number of people because of aerosol transmission. It does need to be everyone in a face covering to provide protection.

I thought it was unreasonable to stick eight year old South Korean children behind a plastic screen and tell them not to talk to each other at lunch - but nobody else seemed to think it was unreasonable

Easy Clav! I responded!
Have a read back. I disagree with you that they wouldn’t be able to talk to their friends at lunch. Perfectly possible with those plastic screens. I agreed with you that it would limit other aspects of socialisation such as running around and playing.

Well said noble. As a parent and a school employee I wholeheartedly agree

We know where private schools have done mass testing, they've uncovered lots of asymptomatic cases in students

Hold on - our private school has tested lots of students since September and none have had it.

Your post should read that some private schools have had lots of asymptomatic cases.

Quick question - how do we know how many children / teenagers have had Covid 19 in school if the track and trace system isn't following them up?

Does each council have the information? Is it held centrally somewhere? anyone has any data per local authority?

My daughters school has to report all cases to PHE.

Has your schol done mass testing mia?

Eton and Sedbergh both did.

Sedbergh famously turned up 58 linked cases.

ChloeDecker
Easy Clav! I responded!
Have a read back. I disagree with you that they wouldn’t be able to talk to their friends at lunch. Perfectly possible with those plastic screens.

Possible, but not allowed in that particular school in South Korea;

"he [eight year old boy] sits metres apart from classmates and is instructed not to talk to friends—not even during lunch, where instead he eats in solitude, separated from the other children by a plastic divider."

noblegiraffe
We know where private schools have done mass testing, they've uncovered lots of asymptomatic cases in students

Private boarding schools? Much more likely to spread infection if pupils and staff are living together 24/7.

Cross post with Piggywaspushed.

Eton and Sedbergh both did.

Two boarding schools.

Personally, I think the biggest danger is unmasked teachers/school staff - particularly to each other.

What rubbish.

Today I was in a spacious room for about an hour with 1 unmasked teacher. I was wearing a mask though.

I have also been in a small room with more than eighty unmasked 16-18 year olds, around 20 at a time for an hour at a time. I was not wearing a a mask either, because I’m not allowed to.

Seriously, which do you think is more risky?

@QueenBlueberries

Quick question - how do we know how many children / teenagers have had Covid 19 in school if the track and trace system isn't following them up?

Does each council have the information? Is it held centrally somewhere? anyone has any data per local authority?

Schools have to directly inform the DfE of all cases, even isolated ones. The NHS is supposed to flag up all cases in school age children to ensure they are reported to schools.

I was not wearing a a mask either, because I’m not allowed to.

I thought masks were optional now for teachers in the classroom.

"he [eight year old boy] sits metres apart from classmates and is instructed not to talk to friends—not even during lunch, where instead he eats in solitude, separated from the other children by a plastic divider."

Sorry, what’s the backstory here? Why is only one child instructed not to talk to the others? The other children are allowed to talk at lunch. Why is this child and why is it the screen’s fault in particular?
I think I’d better read up on this scenario!

I am aware they are boarding schools. I don't know what your point is?

Oh, I see. I have read back. Covid begins at 3.30 pm.

@Piggywaspushed - well, you see, in an expensive boarding school, it’s impossible to keep the kids apart, even though they all have their own bedrooms .

The Eton boys were tested on arrival. Not caught at school, therefore. But it rather reveals exactly how widespread asymptomatic cases are in young people.

We all know why mass testing is being avoided in most school settings.

Oh, ok. That’s the guidelines there. I still don’t see why you previously made the point that screens had to equal no talking if they were introduced in schools. They don’t.

Personally, I think the biggest danger is unmasked teachers/school staff - particularly to each other.
What rubbish

One of the guests on NewsNight some months ago (I can't remember which organisation he represented) said he thought the biggest infection risk to nurses at that time were other nurses and he was going to investigate staff interaction during rest breaks.

My link from Ireland earlier;

"Staff rooms a key risk for spread of Covid-19 in schools, health officials warn."

www.irishtimes.com/news/education/staff-rooms-a-key-risk-for-spread-of-covid-19-in-schools-health-officials-warn-1.4414623

well, you see, in an expensive boarding school, it’s impossible to keep the kids apart, even though they all have their own bedrooms

En suite bathrooms? Cleaning staff? Catering staff?

Ah - lucky bastards for having functioning cleaning staff!

Well as according to this thread it has already spread like wildfire through staff and pupils, most should now be immune. Good news...or alternatively we accept the many reports that children are not massive spreaders and prioritise education, safeguarding and child development. In fact, surely teachers would want these things even if it meant some risk. Since Covid we have entered a parallel universe where only one thing matters. It’s not safe or proportional.

And what about state school shared toilet facilities? Clearly not a danger at all because hundreds of children only use them all day. Whereas poor old Eton - all those filthy bathrooms that nobody cleans.