noblegiraffe wants SAFER schools not closed schools. Do you?

[noblegiraffe]

I'm sure my username in the title will be a red rag to a bull but anyway, if it's there it can't be denied any more. As you'll be aware if you've spent much time on this section, I post regularly about the situation in schools, particularly secondary schools (my patch). Secondary school children are the most infected subset of the population and lack of mitigation measures in schools is causing chaos. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55145313

I have consistently argued for improving mitigation measures in schools in order to reduce transmission, keep schools open for more pupils and to make them safer for teachers, school staff, and vulnerable pupils.

On these threads I have been routinely abused. I've my mental health called into question, my suitability as a teacher, whether I am harming my pupils by being concerned about school safety. I've been questioned as to whether I'm actually a teacher, whether I work for a union or have some secret agenda (aside from my openly stated one to widen awareness of the school situation and my desire for improved safety). The constant refrain has been that I want schools closed. Firstly I was openly told that I wanted schools closed, then that I secretly wanted schools closed. The data I was posting was so bad that it must be a stealth campaign to close schools. That making schools safer is impossible (such a can't-do attitude) so arguing to make them safer is an argument to close them.

And now, there's just this lie constantly posted that there's a massive campaign on MN to close schools. Posts on threads about a 'vocal poster' (i.e. me) who is constantly arguing for this, with an 'echo chamber' of teachers agreeing. It's horseshit.

I think there's a group of posters who see this as a bit of fun. Posting crap and winding up teachers is some sort of weird hobby for them. They have no skin in the game.

But this isn't a game. It's not a hypothetical argument. It's a genuine health and safety issue. I've seen colleagues go down with covid after spending time in classrooms with positive cases. I know a teacher who has been off for months having had it. Fellow teachers on here are catching it. One had to be blue-lighted to hospital. Teachers and school workers are in intensive care or sadly dying. We don't know how many, because this data isn't being published. We don't know how many teachers are off school, because the DfE have deliberately stopped publishing that data.

The situation in schools is not safe. It can be made safer. If you think 'but my school is safe, we've had no/few cases', then please be aware of how quickly things can change, and maybe getting preventative measures in beforehand might be desirable.

My top wish list is:

Mass testing in schools. Particularly when there is a positive case the whole bubble should be tested, to enable effective and targeted isolation and to flush out asymptomatic cases.

Scrapping the policy of only sending home close contacts. It's not working. Relying on children with covid to display the three main adult symptoms is pathetically unreliable as a way of identifying cases and isolating at-risk students. Testing should replace this.

Masks in secondary classrooms (with obvious exemptions and workarounds where needed. This is managed internationally, why should we not be able to?).

Funding for schools to improve ventilation where inadequate and for extra heating to keep the windows open.

No fines for ECV families.

Transparency around schools data, regularly published so the government can be held properly to account.

I don't want schools to close. I want them to be made safer so that they stay open longer to more pupils. If you agree with the premise, parent or teacher, even if you have a different wish list of how to achieve this, please post in support.

Thank you.

There are a lot of children who would benefit from individual desks (my DD is one - she loved it in June/July) even if covid didn't exist.

Being forced to deal with other children's behavioural problems rather than being able to get on with her own work without disruption is a real problem for her in general.

Personally, I think the biggest danger is unmasked teachers/school staff - particularly to each other

I'm baffled as to when these school staff are getting together to be a danger to one another. As many teachers have pointed out, staff rooms and subject bases are mostly closed or for limited occupation and teachers spend their time in contact with children, not other staff. The only exception seems to be in those schools where posters have told us that their heads have insisted on having staff meetings "as normal", all in one room and not socially distanced, and take no notice of social distancing themselves. These heads don't understand the basic rules. It's disgraceful and I hope rare.

To answer your previous question clav, not all students by any means in Germany take two sets of public exams at aged 16 and again at aged 18.

And Finland does not have formal exams.

This all reminds me of the beginning of the pandemic when the DfE kept saying 'but Denmark...' And then stopped when they realised how much money Denmark had spent.

I'm baffled as to when these school staff are getting together to be a danger to one another.

Just googled - Irish Times;

20 Nov -
"Staff rooms a key risk for spread of Covid-19 in schools, health officials [in Ireland] warn."

"Teacher staff rooms and school break times are an area of concern for the potential spread of Covid-19, according to a mid-term review of schools compiled by public health authorities."

"Overall, the review found schools remain safe with very limited evidence of transmission of the virus."

"The report found the proportion of close contacts of pupils or staff who tested positive remained low, despite high levels of community transmission across Ireland, particularly in Dublin, during October."

"However, in a series of recommendations, it says the support of education partners will be key to minimising close contacts in staff rooms and at break times."

"The report says friendship circles, lunchtime activities, break time activities and supervision have been “highlighted as areas where close contacts have often been identified”.

"In addition, it says staff rooms have “not infrequently” been highlighted as an area of concern for potential for infection transmission, resulting in a significant number of staff members being identified as close contacts."

www.irishtimes.com/news/education/staff-rooms-a-key-risk-for-spread-of-covid-19-in-schools-health-officials-warn-1.4414623

@Clavinova

does not seem unreasonable to me

I thought it was unreasonable to stick eight year old South Korean children behind a plastic screen and tell them not to talk to each other at lunch - but nobody else seemed to think it was unreasonable.

No, I think it is very sensible disease mitigation

[quote Clavinova]I'm baffled as to when these school staff are getting together to be a danger to one another.

Just googled - Irish Times;

20 Nov -
"Staff rooms a key risk for spread of Covid-19 in schools, health officials [in Ireland] warn."

"Teacher staff rooms and school break times are an area of concern for the potential spread of Covid-19, according to a mid-term review of schools compiled by public health authorities."

"Overall, the review found schools remain safe with very limited evidence of transmission of the virus."

"The report found the proportion of close contacts of pupils or staff who tested positive remained low, despite high levels of community transmission across Ireland, particularly in Dublin, during October."

"However, in a series of recommendations, it says the support of education partners will be key to minimising close contacts in staff rooms and at break times."

"The report says friendship circles, lunchtime activities, break time activities and supervision have been “highlighted as areas where close contacts have often been identified”.

"In addition, it says staff rooms have “not infrequently” been highlighted as an area of concern for potential for infection transmission, resulting in a significant number of staff members being identified as close contacts."

www.irishtimes.com/news/education/staff-rooms-a-key-risk-for-spread-of-covid-19-in-schools-health-officials-warn-1.4414623[/quote]

1. The group with the highest incidence % of developing covid at the last assessment was secondary school children

2 Secondary school children are 8 times more likely to pass on covid than any other group.

There are a couple of clues as to where teachers might be picking up infections.

Ah, but herecomesthsun, it’s that miraculous thing again where you only need to put staff in masks and tell staff not to talk anywhere but inside the classroom to their students, and tell staff not to eat anything all day for fear of this being a dangerous maskless activity, and the problems are all solved - because obviously teenagers and children don’t spread covid 19 to anyone.

One thing that really bothers me about discussion about this is that so many people seem to be comparing schooling with disease mitigation now with normal times.

We are not in normal times. No-one is suggesting S Korean kids do this FOREVER. Just during a raging pandemic. Well, actually it's not raging in their country - they have fewer than 600 deaths. We have about 600 deaths A DAY.

So we have approx 49,400 more bereaved children in this country.

Yeah, THEIR kids are the ones being disadvantaged.

Haven't read the full thread but posting in full support of @noblegiraffe
I think we will look back at how we exposed children, teachers, support staff and their families with absolute shame in the future.
If you want schools open, mask up.

No-one is suggesting S Korean kids do this FOREVER.

No one is suggesting that teachers should wear masks forever either - although I saw a survey of teachers carried out in Scotland and 50% of teachers didn't want to wear one.

There are a couple of clues as to where teachers might be picking up infections.

The report from Spain (aerosol transmission) posted on another thread seemed to suggest that it was teachers spreading the infection to pupils.

Clav, you don’t appear to have answered the question in the thread title.

Are you in favour of making schools safer? Whether you agree with my wish list or not, do you think this is something that needs to happen?

If you want schools open, give them more money to cover for absent staff (including cleaners....), for cleaning products, for other mitigation measures.

@Clavinova - if staff are spreading the infection to children, then stop forcing them to burst bubbles by moving staff around the school to cover for absent colleagues. Also, is it really credible that children catch covid 19 that easily from adults but barely ever pass it on?

Clav, you don’t appear to have answered the question in the thread title.
Are you in favour of making schools safer?

Yes - I think teachers should wear masks.

@Walkaround a certain poster on here will soon be listing all the additional funding/resources schools have supposedly received

I'm sure that it's going both ways Clavinova ie pupil to teacher and vice vice versa.

But very basic maths would suggest that children will be the main spreaders because there are more of them and they are more likely to be asymptomatic and a very basic look at the random sampling from the ONS shows us that secondary school children are the most infected population in the country at the moment.

In the schools I know (two different local authorities) staff can only mix with their class teams. The staffrooms have been closed since day 1. Initially some professional meetings were still talking place between very small groups of staff, but now they're all on teams. At my old school, teachers see no one face to face apart from their own TAs now, though SMT will occasionally communicate with them through an open window. If they want to talk to the teacher in the next classroom, they have to do so on teams.

In Spain all children from age 6 wear masks (yes, in the classroom!).

So if the teachers aren't wearing masks all the time, that would explain the assertion (if true) that Spanish teachers are infecting kids but not vice versa. Because the kids are wearing masks all the time.

Children here aren't wearing masks so there's nothing to stop them spreading it.

@Clavinova

Clav, you don’t appear to have answered the question in the thread title. Are you in favour of making schools safer?

Yes - I think teachers should wear masks.

Ok, Clav so you agree that schools are not safe enough as they are.

Do you think that children should also wear masks? Or how else would you deal with the issue of children not being tested when they have covid so walking around the school infected and potentially spreading?

a certain poster on here will soon be listing all the additional funding/resources schools have supposedly received

I would love to but I'm going out now.

And if it’s staff giving it to pupils, and secondary school age children have the fastest growing rates of infections, isn’t it time to admit that teachers are therefore at a colossally increased risk of getting covid 19, if they are the ones driving up rates in their pupils?
I do wonder how university students are both catching and passing this virus on so easily when only a year before at school, they weren’t.

@Clavinova

Clav, you don’t appear to have answered the question in the thread title. Are you in favour of making schools safer?

Yes - I think teachers should wear masks.

My daughter teaches 17 year olds. Masks are mostly to protect other people. Why do you think she should wear a mask (she'd like to) but not her students? They are the ones most likely to pass it on.

Also, is it really credible that children catch covid 19 that easily from adults but barely ever pass it on?

No, it's not. What's different between a secondary aged child who's been through puberty and an adult, in biological terms, that would explain it? Nothing.

Magical thinking, a denial of reality, and cherry picking of statistics (e.g using stats from when schools in lockdown) are why this myth is perpetuated.

Clav quoted evidence from Ireland where the kids wear masks in the classroom.