Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

noblegiraffe wants SAFER schools not closed schools. Do you?

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 01/12/2020 20:19

I'm sure my username in the title will be a red rag to a bull but anyway, if it's there it can't be denied any more. As you'll be aware if you've spent much time on this section, I post regularly about the situation in schools, particularly secondary schools (my patch). Secondary school children are the most infected subset of the population and lack of mitigation measures in schools is causing chaos. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55145313

I have consistently argued for improving mitigation measures in schools in order to reduce transmission, keep schools open for more pupils and to make them safer for teachers, school staff, and vulnerable pupils.

On these threads I have been routinely abused. I've my mental health called into question, my suitability as a teacher, whether I am harming my pupils by being concerned about school safety. I've been questioned as to whether I'm actually a teacher, whether I work for a union or have some secret agenda (aside from my openly stated one to widen awareness of the school situation and my desire for improved safety). The constant refrain has been that I want schools closed. Firstly I was openly told that I wanted schools closed, then that I secretly wanted schools closed. The data I was posting was so bad that it must be a stealth campaign to close schools. That making schools safer is impossible (such a can't-do attitude) so arguing to make them safer is an argument to close them.

And now, there's just this lie constantly posted that there's a massive campaign on MN to close schools. Posts on threads about a 'vocal poster' (i.e. me) who is constantly arguing for this, with an 'echo chamber' of teachers agreeing. It's horseshit.

I think there's a group of posters who see this as a bit of fun. Posting crap and winding up teachers is some sort of weird hobby for them. They have no skin in the game.

But this isn't a game. It's not a hypothetical argument. It's a genuine health and safety issue. I've seen colleagues go down with covid after spending time in classrooms with positive cases. I know a teacher who has been off for months having had it. Fellow teachers on here are catching it. One had to be blue-lighted to hospital. Teachers and school workers are in intensive care or sadly dying. We don't know how many, because this data isn't being published. We don't know how many teachers are off school, because the DfE have deliberately stopped publishing that data.

The situation in schools is not safe. It can be made safer. If you think 'but my school is safe, we've had no/few cases', then please be aware of how quickly things can change, and maybe getting preventative measures in beforehand might be desirable.

My top wish list is:

Mass testing in schools. Particularly when there is a positive case the whole bubble should be tested, to enable effective and targeted isolation and to flush out asymptomatic cases.

Scrapping the policy of only sending home close contacts. It's not working. Relying on children with covid to display the three main adult symptoms is pathetically unreliable as a way of identifying cases and isolating at-risk students. Testing should replace this.

Masks in secondary classrooms (with obvious exemptions and workarounds where needed. This is managed internationally, why should we not be able to?).

Funding for schools to improve ventilation where inadequate and for extra heating to keep the windows open.

No fines for ECV families.

Transparency around schools data, regularly published so the government can be held properly to account.

I don't want schools to close. I want them to be made safer so that they stay open longer to more pupils. If you agree with the premise, parent or teacher, even if you have a different wish list of how to achieve this, please post in support.

Thank you.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Clavinova · 03/12/2020 12:21

I somehow doubt schools in Germany have had quite the amount of cumulative pupil absence since the pandemic started as UK schools.

Some areas in Germany probably have - "In the country's most populous state of North Rhine-Westphalia, over 550 schools are affected by the isolation measures—about one in ten facilities."

Walkaround · 03/12/2020 12:30

Isn’t that low compared to the worst affected parts of the UK?

Walkaround · 03/12/2020 12:36

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55057125

Walkaround · 03/12/2020 12:37

3/4 secondary schools affected v 1/10...

Walkaround · 03/12/2020 12:38

900,000 v 300,000

Clavinova · 03/12/2020 12:39

Personally, I think the biggest danger is unmasked teachers/school staff - particularly to each other.

You could lobby local councils first - Midlothian Council recommended that their teachers wear masks in October;

Midlothian teachers have been urged to now wear face coverings in classrooms, as well as communal areas [such as staff rooms.]

www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/midlothian-teachers-now-told-wear-19096637

Walkaround · 03/12/2020 12:47

Maybe we should compare what we are doing to keep schools safe with what schools are doing in Singapore, S. Korea, Finland and Germany Grin. Oh no, maybe not.

MrsMiaWallis · 03/12/2020 12:49

Presumably he picked those countries as they have excellent academic outcomes.

christinarossetti19 · 03/12/2020 12:49

[quote Clavinova]The new way forward for A-levels;

"The Suneung, an abbreviation for College Scholastic Ability Test (CSAT) in Korean, is an eight-hour examination which has back-to-back papers in six sections - Korean, maths, English, history, social studies, and a second foreign language."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-55155217[/quote]
Forward for who Clavinova?

You're not seriously talking about the UK are you?

'Hey kids, forget about those two or three specialist subject exams you've been trying to study. We're going to have a single eight hour exam that everyone sits! Mocks? Don't be daft, we haven't written the papers yet! You study music and DT? Soz, might be a bit of a tricky paper for you! BTech, you say? Pleeeaaase don't nit pick!'

christinarossetti19 · 03/12/2020 12:50

@Walkaround

Maybe we should compare what we are doing to keep schools safe with what schools are doing in Singapore, S. Korea, Finland and Germany Grin. Oh no, maybe not.
Grin Grin Grin
Clavinova · 03/12/2020 12:53

Walkaround

I wouldn't be surprised if teachers in South Korea have to wear masks all day as well - and not talk to each other whilst eating lunch .

Walkaround · 03/12/2020 12:55

@Clavinova - I note you are carefully avoiding touching on the subject of students wearing masks all day Grin.

Clavinova · 03/12/2020 12:56

Forward for who
You're not seriously talking about the UK are you?

Of course not - tongue-in-cheek.

Clavinova · 03/12/2020 12:58

I note you are carefully avoiding touching on the subject of students wearing masks all day.

Easier for the unions to influence school staff first surely - or don't teachers want to wear masks?

Whyarewehardofthinking · 03/12/2020 13:00

@Clavinova there are plenty of schools local to me with staff wearing masks 90% of the time and we have been since before half term. Greater Manchester has had such high numbers and our schools have taken such a battering we all wear them unless eating or sat behind our computers (if 2 metres away). Out of my school, my DPs and all of the schools where I still have contacts we have honestly been wearing them at least in communal areas since the start of term in September. My DP is in Bolton and the kids have also constantly been in masks.

Comefromaway · 03/12/2020 13:00

My husband wears a mask whenever possible and a visor when not. But it makes more sense for the students to be wearing masks rather than the teacher to aid communication when the teacher is explaining concepts etc whereas in many instances the students should simply be listening.

christinarossetti19 · 03/12/2020 13:03

Sorry Clav, hard to tell!

Clavinova · 03/12/2020 13:06

there are plenty of schools local to me with staff wearing masks 90% of the time and we have been since before half term.

What percentage of staff in each school?

My DP is in Bolton and the kids have also constantly been in masks.

So mask wearing hasn't been an effective intervention then?

Walkaround · 03/12/2020 13:06

@Clavinova - I work in a school and everyone is required to wear masks in communal areas. It’s a primary school, so the DfE thoroughly disapproves of classroom mask wearing. I do find the problem with masks, though, is that people keep asking you to speak up, or move closer to you to hear you. I’m not convinced it’s that protective for only staff to wear non-medical grade face coverings, considering.

noblegiraffe · 03/12/2020 13:07

Personally, I think the biggest danger is unmasked teachers/school staff

But that’s based on an assumption that teachers are mingling in staffrooms (generally false) yet maintaining 2m distance from pupils at all times (also false).

Teachers spend the majority of their time in small classrooms with 30 unmasked kids who are more likely to have asymptomatic covid than adults. Anyone claiming that is not a situation ripe for covid transmission is just not following the science.

OP posts:
Clavinova · 03/12/2020 13:14

noblegiraffe

Was it you who linked to the Independent Sage report on schools? They recommended that teachers should wear masks;

"Teachers and other staff should wear masks whenever they are in a room with students or other adults."

Walkaround · 03/12/2020 13:16

In a primary school, if staff can’t go to a staffroom at all, then generally the only rooms available to them all day are the toilets, photocopying room and classroom. Limiting the numbers allowed in at a time in a ventilated staffroom so that all can maintain 2m distance from each other, and all wear masks when not eating, does not seem unreasonable to me. Are there any other workplaces where staff are blamed for needing somewhere to eat other than a classroom full of 30 children?

Whyarewehardofthinking · 03/12/2020 13:18

@Clavinova sorry, I'm a bit busy to take a survey of 14 schools; I'm currently setting up my half online/half in class lesson whilst eating my dinner.

You can't question the effectiveness of masks based on this at all. We know masks reduce droplet transmission and, quite honestly, in not getting into that debate. We could have been in a much worse situation if we didn't have masks; my DPs school is one of the best cases wise in his area.

noblegiraffe · 03/12/2020 13:18

Was it you who linked to the Independent Sage report on schools?

No, but I don’t have a problem with teachers wearing masks. I think if we’re going the mask route, the 30 other people in the room I spend the most time with should be wearing one too. Just as they are expected to on public transport and in shops and in the corridors.

OP posts:
Clavinova · 03/12/2020 13:23

does not seem unreasonable to me

I thought it was unreasonable to stick eight year old South Korean children behind a plastic screen and tell them not to talk to each other at lunch - but nobody else seemed to think it was unreasonable.