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noblegiraffe wants SAFER schools not closed schools. Do you?

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 01/12/2020 20:19

I'm sure my username in the title will be a red rag to a bull but anyway, if it's there it can't be denied any more. As you'll be aware if you've spent much time on this section, I post regularly about the situation in schools, particularly secondary schools (my patch). Secondary school children are the most infected subset of the population and lack of mitigation measures in schools is causing chaos. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55145313

I have consistently argued for improving mitigation measures in schools in order to reduce transmission, keep schools open for more pupils and to make them safer for teachers, school staff, and vulnerable pupils.

On these threads I have been routinely abused. I've my mental health called into question, my suitability as a teacher, whether I am harming my pupils by being concerned about school safety. I've been questioned as to whether I'm actually a teacher, whether I work for a union or have some secret agenda (aside from my openly stated one to widen awareness of the school situation and my desire for improved safety). The constant refrain has been that I want schools closed. Firstly I was openly told that I wanted schools closed, then that I secretly wanted schools closed. The data I was posting was so bad that it must be a stealth campaign to close schools. That making schools safer is impossible (such a can't-do attitude) so arguing to make them safer is an argument to close them.

And now, there's just this lie constantly posted that there's a massive campaign on MN to close schools. Posts on threads about a 'vocal poster' (i.e. me) who is constantly arguing for this, with an 'echo chamber' of teachers agreeing. It's horseshit.

I think there's a group of posters who see this as a bit of fun. Posting crap and winding up teachers is some sort of weird hobby for them. They have no skin in the game.

But this isn't a game. It's not a hypothetical argument. It's a genuine health and safety issue. I've seen colleagues go down with covid after spending time in classrooms with positive cases. I know a teacher who has been off for months having had it. Fellow teachers on here are catching it. One had to be blue-lighted to hospital. Teachers and school workers are in intensive care or sadly dying. We don't know how many, because this data isn't being published. We don't know how many teachers are off school, because the DfE have deliberately stopped publishing that data.

The situation in schools is not safe. It can be made safer. If you think 'but my school is safe, we've had no/few cases', then please be aware of how quickly things can change, and maybe getting preventative measures in beforehand might be desirable.

My top wish list is:

Mass testing in schools. Particularly when there is a positive case the whole bubble should be tested, to enable effective and targeted isolation and to flush out asymptomatic cases.

Scrapping the policy of only sending home close contacts. It's not working. Relying on children with covid to display the three main adult symptoms is pathetically unreliable as a way of identifying cases and isolating at-risk students. Testing should replace this.

Masks in secondary classrooms (with obvious exemptions and workarounds where needed. This is managed internationally, why should we not be able to?).

Funding for schools to improve ventilation where inadequate and for extra heating to keep the windows open.

No fines for ECV families.

Transparency around schools data, regularly published so the government can be held properly to account.

I don't want schools to close. I want them to be made safer so that they stay open longer to more pupils. If you agree with the premise, parent or teacher, even if you have a different wish list of how to achieve this, please post in support.

Thank you.

OP posts:
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ineedaholidaynow · 03/12/2020 08:18

But if masks mainly protect the people around the person wearing the mask, it’s not much help for the teacher if they can wear a mask if all the pupils aren’t.

Isthatitnow · 03/12/2020 08:19

The alternative would be that people who don’t want safer schools don’t give a shit about vulnerable kids catching it so long as their kid doesn’t have to experience mitigation measures

I think that's about it. The same people who argue vulnerable kids should be in school. Which of course they should. Easy to forget that vulnerable has lots of different meanings and vulnerable to covid kids and families also deserve an education and also deserve to be in school.

Walkaround · 03/12/2020 08:20

@TrustTheGeneGenie - don’t you think mass testing might be more reliable than testing only on the back of 3 symptoms (interpreted somewhat loosely by families who don’t want their children stuck at home), though, given the high proportion of young people in particular who do not get the classic symptoms? How about in schools that have started reporting an increasing number of cases, regardless of the tier they are in? Or should those schools just close altogether for 2 weeks to try and stamp the localised issue out? Or just keep going until they have to close due to staffing shortages and have some staff off, or underperforming long term due to long covid? Or touch wood each day and cross their fingers?

Bollss · 03/12/2020 08:24

[quote Walkaround]@TrustTheGeneGenie - don’t you think mass testing might be more reliable than testing only on the back of 3 symptoms (interpreted somewhat loosely by families who don’t want their children stuck at home), though, given the high proportion of young people in particular who do not get the classic symptoms? How about in schools that have started reporting an increasing number of cases, regardless of the tier they are in? Or should those schools just close altogether for 2 weeks to try and stamp the localised issue out? Or just keep going until they have to close due to staffing shortages and have some staff off, or underperforming long term due to long covid? Or touch wood each day and cross their fingers?[/quote]
Testing itself isn't reliable either how it is now or mass testing. Testing more people doesntmake the test itself more reliable does it?

Bollss · 03/12/2020 08:25

@ChloeDecker

I just don't agree with children being forced to wear it.

Even the 17 and 18 year old children in schools?

Public transport where I am (trains, tube and buses) do insist on masks over 12 year olds.

I agree with you about your Reception age child and my own Year 1 child regarding masks etc. Secondary schools aren’t the same however, and therefore, a blanket ‘no school should do this’ isn’t often helpful.

No I don't agree with it because I wouldn't like it, but as an adult I can choose.

It's just my opinion and makes not a shit of difference to anyone else!

IloveJKRowling · 03/12/2020 08:27

But if masks mainly protect the people around the person wearing the mask, it’s not much help for the teacher if they can wear a mask if all the pupils aren’t.

But masks DO protect the wearer from severe disease by reducing viral load. There is increasing evidence to show this.

Look up the hamster study - hamsters in a cage with a mask got less sick (from memory about a quarter vs three quarters in non-masked cage) and none of the ones who got sick got seriously ill / died (whereas lots of the ones in cage without mask got sick and died).

Walkaround · 03/12/2020 08:27

@TrustTheGeneGenie - I’m asking you which you think is more reliable - a parent desperate to be able to go to work so sending their child into school knowing they are ill, or some kind of test?

Bollss · 03/12/2020 08:31

[quote Walkaround]@TrustTheGeneGenie - I’m asking you which you think is more reliable - a parent desperate to be able to go to work so sending their child into school knowing they are ill, or some kind of test?[/quote]
Neither is reliable. People won't take tests in that situation anyway surely?

ineedaholidaynow · 03/12/2020 08:34

@TrustTheGeneGenie what do you think schools should do in respect of COVID?

christinarossetti19 · 03/12/2020 08:44

Testing more people doesn't make the test itself more reliable. It's not meant to. It's meant to identify particularly asymptomatic cases and enable people to take action re: self-isolation to avoid the spread of the virus.

Having fewer infectious people in an environment will leave to fewer people getting infected.

Bollss · 03/12/2020 08:45

[quote ineedaholidaynow]@TrustTheGeneGenie what do you think schools should do in respect of COVID?[/quote]
I've already said I don't know. What do you want? And even if I did know, it wouldn't matter because none of our opinions matter.

Bollss · 03/12/2020 08:46

@christinarossetti19

Testing more people doesn't make the test itself more reliable. It's not meant to. It's meant to identify particularly asymptomatic cases and enable people to take action re: self-isolation to avoid the spread of the virus.

Having fewer infectious people in an environment will leave to fewer people getting infected.

Yes, I know. I'm not thick. Just the dlase positive / false negative is an issue and it obv increases as testing increases. I don't think they know that asymptomatic people spread anyway so seems a bit pointless really.
MilesJuppIsMyBitch · 03/12/2020 08:47

Feels like a good moment to drop this in here (again).

This is what I hear when people moan about masks.

Walkaround · 03/12/2020 08:47

@TrustTheGeneGenie - I think the majority of parents would take the test in the situation where a school was reporting a growing number of cases and their children’s education was being disrupted anyway - rather that than wait until the whole school closes and a school says it can no longer reliably staff some subjects, so they are now off the curriculum as GCSE choices.

Bollss · 03/12/2020 08:48

Oh dear. Says more about you than anyone else. Anyway I'm going to go now because there's no point trying to argue with people who don't understand the concept that not everyone has to bow down and agree.

echt · 03/12/2020 08:49

I've already said I don't know. What do you want?

Well you keep turning upon these threads, so one would hope you would have something to share. You're happy with your child's school What happens there?

And even if I did know, it wouldn't matter because none of our opinions matter

Possibly you're conflating not agreeing with saying they don't matter. Not the same.

Whereisgavin · 03/12/2020 08:50

I don't think they know

Best not to opine on that if you are so unsure then.

Bollss · 03/12/2020 08:52

@Whereisgavin

I don't think they know

Best not to opine on that if you are so unsure then.

Really? Wow.
echt · 03/12/2020 08:52

Anyway I'm going to go now because there's no point trying to argue with people who don't understand the concept that not everyone has to bow down and agree

Isn't that, like, debate? Kind of thing. The sort of thing we're having here?

However, kitchen, heat.

MilesJuppIsMyBitch · 03/12/2020 08:53

Thing is, @TrustTheGeneGenie, if I argued as you do - solely based on my own feelings and experience - then I would want schools closed, all remote learning, shops only allowing a certain number of people in, and dedicated time for ECV to have outdoor spaces to themselves. That would make my life a lot nicer.

However, it would also make a lot of people's lives much worse, (and lots of children less safe), so I don't.

My children have been at home since early March, unable to go to school or see their friends, because of the danger to my health.

When I see you bleating on about masks/screens not being very nice for children, it makes me feel standby, frankly. Just get your head out of your arse.

Bollss · 03/12/2020 08:53

@echt

I've already said I don't know. What do you want?

Well you keep turning upon these threads, so one would hope you would have something to share. You're happy with your child's school What happens there?

And even if I did know, it wouldn't matter because none of our opinions matter

Possibly you're conflating not agreeing with saying they don't matter. Not the same.

Nothing. They go to school as normal and wahs their hands more.
echt · 03/12/2020 08:54

Nothing. They go to school as normal and wahs their hands more

So they do something.

MilesJuppIsMyBitch · 03/12/2020 08:54

That's STABBY, not standby. To clarify.

christinarossetti19 · 03/12/2020 08:54

Did you mean 'false positive/false negative'?

Can you link to some research about 'false positives' because they are extremely rare in any type of medical procedures. False negatives do happen sometimes yes but, not I'm aware, in sufficient numbers to invalidate the scientific case for routine testing?

Although you may have read some different research to show this.

The briefest of glances at epidemological data gathered by the ONS from their random testing of individuals of all ages across the country indicates very clearly that asymptomatic people spread the virus.

The age group with the most rapid rising numbers of covid infection are secondary school aged children. Most of these will be asymptomatically spreading the virus..

Also, look at what happened in universities when term started. Routine testing identified loads of asymptomatic positive cases, whole halls of residence testing positive. Given that students were pretty much contained to their living quarters at the beginning of term, it's statistically impossible that each and everyone of them will have caught it somewhere else.

Chathamhouserules · 03/12/2020 08:55

I agree with you, but not much point just posting on mn. That wont get anywhere. Write to MPs, write to unions, education minister. Not saying that will work either but might help!