noblegiraffe wants SAFER schools not closed schools. Do you?

[noblegiraffe]

I'm sure my username in the title will be a red rag to a bull but anyway, if it's there it can't be denied any more. As you'll be aware if you've spent much time on this section, I post regularly about the situation in schools, particularly secondary schools (my patch). Secondary school children are the most infected subset of the population and lack of mitigation measures in schools is causing chaos. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55145313

I have consistently argued for improving mitigation measures in schools in order to reduce transmission, keep schools open for more pupils and to make them safer for teachers, school staff, and vulnerable pupils.

On these threads I have been routinely abused. I've my mental health called into question, my suitability as a teacher, whether I am harming my pupils by being concerned about school safety. I've been questioned as to whether I'm actually a teacher, whether I work for a union or have some secret agenda (aside from my openly stated one to widen awareness of the school situation and my desire for improved safety). The constant refrain has been that I want schools closed. Firstly I was openly told that I wanted schools closed, then that I secretly wanted schools closed. The data I was posting was so bad that it must be a stealth campaign to close schools. That making schools safer is impossible (such a can't-do attitude) so arguing to make them safer is an argument to close them.

And now, there's just this lie constantly posted that there's a massive campaign on MN to close schools. Posts on threads about a 'vocal poster' (i.e. me) who is constantly arguing for this, with an 'echo chamber' of teachers agreeing. It's horseshit.

I think there's a group of posters who see this as a bit of fun. Posting crap and winding up teachers is some sort of weird hobby for them. They have no skin in the game.

But this isn't a game. It's not a hypothetical argument. It's a genuine health and safety issue. I've seen colleagues go down with covid after spending time in classrooms with positive cases. I know a teacher who has been off for months having had it. Fellow teachers on here are catching it. One had to be blue-lighted to hospital. Teachers and school workers are in intensive care or sadly dying. We don't know how many, because this data isn't being published. We don't know how many teachers are off school, because the DfE have deliberately stopped publishing that data.

The situation in schools is not safe. It can be made safer. If you think 'but my school is safe, we've had no/few cases', then please be aware of how quickly things can change, and maybe getting preventative measures in beforehand might be desirable.

My top wish list is:

Mass testing in schools. Particularly when there is a positive case the whole bubble should be tested, to enable effective and targeted isolation and to flush out asymptomatic cases.

Scrapping the policy of only sending home close contacts. It's not working. Relying on children with covid to display the three main adult symptoms is pathetically unreliable as a way of identifying cases and isolating at-risk students. Testing should replace this.

Masks in secondary classrooms (with obvious exemptions and workarounds where needed. This is managed internationally, why should we not be able to?).

Funding for schools to improve ventilation where inadequate and for extra heating to keep the windows open.

No fines for ECV families.

Transparency around schools data, regularly published so the government can be held properly to account.

I don't want schools to close. I want them to be made safer so that they stay open longer to more pupils. If you agree with the premise, parent or teacher, even if you have a different wish list of how to achieve this, please post in support.

Thank you.

"This is why so many people are put off by these threads, there isn't much in the way of civil discussion to be had now it's descended into a warzone, anyone who dares stick their head above the parapet is piled on for often daft reasons that aren't really an issue."

Thanks for highlighting that Miles.

Sounds sensible

@TrustTheGeneGenie

I don't want schools closed. I want my kids to be able to go to school to be educated and so that they will in future be able to read for comprehension. Unlike some posters on here.

But, if they are going to school in a pandemic, in the course of which I have been told by the government to spend several months shielding, then I would like those schools to follow international advice on safety standards. Standards which have just be lauded on National TV by the Deputy CMO, standing next to the PM, while giving a medical briefing.

Thank you.

@TaxTheRatFarms

Jesus. You'd be happy with your child "learning" in an environment like that?

Yes I am pretty horrified at the lack of interaction with other children. I don't see how their social outcomes can be better when they aren't allowed to socialise?

Trust

This is the danger of only seeing a snippet of a story. My nephew goes to a school that’s relatively recently started using screens. He’s already used to wearing a mask because Japan, and doesn’t seem bothered at all by the screens. Sounds like the teachers are really upbeat and not making a big deal out of it. I asked him if the screens were a bit weird, and he said “they’re alright, still have to study though which is rubbish.” He’s still wounded that his cousins here got 6 months at home and he only got a month and a bit.

What you also don’t see in that picture is that at playtime they’re outside, running, mingling, yelling, playing, having fun.

And what you also don’t see in that picture is that there are no restrictions where he lives, so he can see his friends at the weekends. Meanwhile over here, ds cant go to his friends house at the weekend to hang out and chat and play games. The only time they get together is 20 minute break time and 40 minute lunchtime at school.

Which one is better for their mental health?

I will never agree that shoving a child behind a plastic screen for 6 hours a day 5 days a week is better for their mental health.

[quote herecomesthsun]@TrustTheGeneGenie

I don't want schools closed. I want my kids to be able to go to school to be educated and so that they will in future be able to read for comprehension. Unlike some posters on here.

But, if they are going to school in a pandemic, in the course of which I have been told by the government to spend several months shielding, then I would like those schools to follow international advice on safety standards. Standards which have just be lauded on National TV by the Deputy CMO, standing next to the PM, while giving a medical briefing.

Thank you.[/quote]
I appreciate why you would want that, however I imagine the vast majority do not want that and therefore it likely won't happen. I do think you should be able to keep your kids off, if you want to, though.

BEEN lauded.

@noblegiraffe. and the disappointment over the lack of an untimely demise LOL

@Mookie81, You're right - I'm so sorry! Misinterpreted what you were saying.

What's wrong with plastic screens? My son loves staring at his Nintendo Switch. We have windows in the house, and car windows in the car. It's just another way of doing things that's a bit safer.

If we are talking about individuality, I don't think the occasional bit of perspex would compromise this, maybe we could just, well, think outside the box on this one?

I will never agree that shoving a child behind a plastic screen for 6 hours a day 5 days a week is better for their mental health.

“Shoving”. Honestly

You were making the point that they can’t socialise, which is damaging to their mental health. Which was incorrect. My nephew gets to socialise much more than my kids do, with all our ineffective measures and ongoing lockdowns and restrictions. There are plenty of posters who declare these lockdowns to be awful for children’s mental health. But try for a mitigation and you’re a child “shoving” monster. Can’t win

By the time perspex screens were installed I should imagine most people will be vaccinated.

@herecomesthsun

What's wrong with plastic screens? My son loves staring at his Nintendo Switch. We have windows in the house, and car windows in the car. It's just another way of doing things that's a bit safer.

If we are talking about individuality, I don't think the occasional bit of perspex would compromise this, maybe we could just, well, think outside the box on this one?

Are you being serious? This is not the same as a window In a house, your car, or a switch?

@TaxTheRatFarms

I will never agree that shoving a child behind a plastic screen for 6 hours a day 5 days a week is better for their mental health.

“Shoving”. Honestly

You were making the point that they can’t socialise, which is damaging to their mental health. Which was incorrect. My nephew gets to socialise much more than my kids do, with all our ineffective measures and ongoing lockdowns and restrictions. There are plenty of posters who declare these lockdowns to be awful for children’s mental health. But try for a mitigation and you’re a child “shoving” monster. Can’t win

If he can socialise freely why do they need screens? Does it only spread in schools in Japan ?

I don’t want screens on student desks in secondary because by the end of day one they’d be festooned with carved penises.

Except you'll all get it eventually of course, particularly if vulnerable or over 50.

I am both of these things (also a teacher) and I’m a long way down the list. My school has been getting more cases by the day during lockdown. I am also nervous about what will happen once the very vulnerable are vaccinated and everyone wants to get back to normal because the perceived overall risk has reduced.

Trust

Actually yes, it’s the complete opposite of the UK, where school is apparently the only place it can’t spread.

Seriously though, he doesn’t tend to have 30-person 6 hour long play dates, which makes a difference. And people are sensible - adults and kids are all used to wearing masks, my family don’t hold massive play dates, but they can go to each other’s houses. The riskier place where you need mitigations is seen as school, where you have 20-30 contacts in a room, and not a play date where you have a few contacts.

Also their case numbers are low, so there’s no need for the constant worry and vigilance - this itself helps kids mental health.

I don't think vaccination will completely be the end of this.

For one thing, school kids won't be vaccinated.

For another, the vaccine may well not be long lasting. This week, we haven't heard much more about this (or at least, I have noticed much) as this is another aspect that won't be well understood yet. We will have to wait to see what the evidence is, with time.

Also, the vaccine, at least the first two doses, needs to be given 21 days apart.

We also may garner more information as time goes by about particular subgroups and variations in how the vaccine affects them.

We may have complications in the vaccine roll out,

So there may be complications and delays in getting the vaccine out to people, there may be variable protection and then people may become susceptible again as the effect of the vaccine wears off (which seems quite a likely scenario).

And of course, there are other disease vectors. It might be that screens would protect from the usual scourge of colds and the flu and protect from future episodes of infectious diseases.

I have wondered why more wasn't been done to use clear screens to protect especially adults in schools, and I'd be really interested to know more about the use in Japan. I don't think my kids would mind being behind a screen and having their own space.

I think a more likely barrier to implementation would be the Government's reluctance to spend one penny more on children's education in state schools.

@TaxTheRatFarms

Trust

Actually yes, it’s the complete opposite of the UK, where school is apparently the only place it can’t spread.

Seriously though, he doesn’t tend to have 30-person 6 hour long play dates, which makes a difference. And people are sensible - adults and kids are all used to wearing masks, my family don’t hold massive play dates, but they can go to each other’s houses. The riskier place where you need mitigations is seen as school, where you have 20-30 contacts in a room, and not a play date where you have a few contacts.

Also their case numbers are low, so there’s no need for the constant worry and vigilance - this itself helps kids mental health.

It's all very contradictory isnt it?

I still don't agree with it. If you can socialise everywhere else freely, you don't need plastic screens in schools.

@TrustTheGeneGenie absolutely serious. I think sitting behind a screen would be easier than wearing a mask. And I support masks in school.

@noblegiraffe lol lol at the graffiti. My DC's secondary school would however slap detentions all over for that, I imagine that would work?

I suppose the screens would have to be cleaned between classes so masks are simpler

[quote herecomesthsun]@TrustTheGeneGenie absolutely serious. I think sitting behind a screen would be easier than wearing a mask. And I support masks in school.

@noblegiraffe lol lol at the graffiti. My DC's secondary school would however slap detentions all over for that, I imagine that would work?[/quote]
I don't support either of those things. I don't think "easy" should come into it when we're talking about the welfare of children.

If the children stayed in the same place a) the screens wouldn't need cleaning and b) you could see quite clearly who had decorated their screen.

@cantkeepawayforever

Thank you for continuing to post - it can't be good for your mental health / sleep deprivation to continually have to post exactly the same thing again and again to those who seem to think that if they post misinformation ('schools are safe') and slander ('teachers want to close schools') often enough, people will believe them.

Thank you for your level-headed persistence.

This is what I came on to say.

Keep fighting the good fight. I am full of admiration for your strength and persistence.

Thank you @noblegiraffe

It’s about the numbers of people in spaces, Trust

Lots of kids in a classroom = you will need some protection.
A couple of kids in a living room = Not crowded, ok.
Kids playing outside = ventilated space, all ok.

As I said, my SIL isn’t going to cram 30 kids into her living room for a play date.

For more in depth policy analysis you might need to ask the Japanese government as I cant explain their logic anymore than it seems very common sense, and their case numbers are really low.

and also Jonathan Van Tam thinks the Japanese way of doing things is the right one...

@herecomesthsun

and also Jonathan Van Tam thinks the Japanese way of doing things is the right one...

Good for him. That doesn't convince me.