noblegiraffe wants SAFER schools not closed schools. Do you?

[noblegiraffe]

I'm sure my username in the title will be a red rag to a bull but anyway, if it's there it can't be denied any more. As you'll be aware if you've spent much time on this section, I post regularly about the situation in schools, particularly secondary schools (my patch). Secondary school children are the most infected subset of the population and lack of mitigation measures in schools is causing chaos. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55145313

I have consistently argued for improving mitigation measures in schools in order to reduce transmission, keep schools open for more pupils and to make them safer for teachers, school staff, and vulnerable pupils.

On these threads I have been routinely abused. I've my mental health called into question, my suitability as a teacher, whether I am harming my pupils by being concerned about school safety. I've been questioned as to whether I'm actually a teacher, whether I work for a union or have some secret agenda (aside from my openly stated one to widen awareness of the school situation and my desire for improved safety). The constant refrain has been that I want schools closed. Firstly I was openly told that I wanted schools closed, then that I secretly wanted schools closed. The data I was posting was so bad that it must be a stealth campaign to close schools. That making schools safer is impossible (such a can't-do attitude) so arguing to make them safer is an argument to close them.

And now, there's just this lie constantly posted that there's a massive campaign on MN to close schools. Posts on threads about a 'vocal poster' (i.e. me) who is constantly arguing for this, with an 'echo chamber' of teachers agreeing. It's horseshit.

I think there's a group of posters who see this as a bit of fun. Posting crap and winding up teachers is some sort of weird hobby for them. They have no skin in the game.

But this isn't a game. It's not a hypothetical argument. It's a genuine health and safety issue. I've seen colleagues go down with covid after spending time in classrooms with positive cases. I know a teacher who has been off for months having had it. Fellow teachers on here are catching it. One had to be blue-lighted to hospital. Teachers and school workers are in intensive care or sadly dying. We don't know how many, because this data isn't being published. We don't know how many teachers are off school, because the DfE have deliberately stopped publishing that data.

The situation in schools is not safe. It can be made safer. If you think 'but my school is safe, we've had no/few cases', then please be aware of how quickly things can change, and maybe getting preventative measures in beforehand might be desirable.

My top wish list is:

Mass testing in schools. Particularly when there is a positive case the whole bubble should be tested, to enable effective and targeted isolation and to flush out asymptomatic cases.

Scrapping the policy of only sending home close contacts. It's not working. Relying on children with covid to display the three main adult symptoms is pathetically unreliable as a way of identifying cases and isolating at-risk students. Testing should replace this.

Masks in secondary classrooms (with obvious exemptions and workarounds where needed. This is managed internationally, why should we not be able to?).

Funding for schools to improve ventilation where inadequate and for extra heating to keep the windows open.

No fines for ECV families.

Transparency around schools data, regularly published so the government can be held properly to account.

I don't want schools to close. I want them to be made safer so that they stay open longer to more pupils. If you agree with the premise, parent or teacher, even if you have a different wish list of how to achieve this, please post in support.

Thank you.

I'm with you, @noblegiraffe, every step of the way. You have vocalised how I feel.
The risk is real, but of course 'schools will stay open', seemingly whatever the cost.
It's something that school students and staff face in a daily basis.
The government are blindly ignoring it.
I could say much, much more in the subject, but won't.
But, I'm with you. , , , - whatever you want or need is being sent virtually!

@SansaSnark I think ds school hands masks to those who forget
The ones who deliberately won't my answer wouldn't be acceptable
Yes my ds has said its freezing, first year he has taken a coat to school.
Kids mix at lunch because in their eyes they sit next to each other etc and are in the same bubble as my ds says , I have to explain that to him when he has asked to go out with a group at weekend so the kids have mixed messages.
Thats why i think whole year group bubbles should isolate because no one knows for sure whos mixed witj who at lunchtime
The rules are very mixed messages across the board now
And face to face contact is less than 15 mins
Can I ask what unions are doing in this ?? Genuine question

No thank you. As a teacher I would prefer to stay away from mass testing and mask wearing.

[quote timeforanewstart]@Itisasecret I want schools to stay open as my ds is in year 11 and expected to sit exams in a few months , in fact has btech one in feb
I also think its better for the majority to be in school
If that makes me selfish then so be it , of course I want them safe but other than write to my Mp what else can I do on a personal level.
And yes it makes me wonder why some schools put in measures which others don't seem to be.
I am impressed by what my son school has done and think they have done the best they possibly can under the guidelines they have been given , a previous poster said there school doesn't enforce mask wearing in corridors , in a situation like that , that is on the school.
Lack of windows obviously not [/quote]
If every school and college was like my sons with large well ventilated rooms, state of the art facilities, lots of separate spaces to bubble and staff & management who understand the risks and enforce lots of safety measures I too would probably be wondering what all the fuss is about.

But they are not.

@Thesunisstillshining , many offices have little ventilation , I have worked in several , or little offices where a few share off a main room.
Basement offices etc

the way to keep them open is to make them as safe as other workplaces have to be.

Exactly. My daughter's school went from okay, to one bubble being sent home, to closing completely for two weeks, in no time at all. Once the virus was established it just rampaged through the pla to the point where only closing was an option.

My daughter teaches 17 year olds. I see no reason at all why they shoudn't wear masks in lessons. In fact I see no reason why any secondary school pupils shouldn't wear masks in lessons. 17 year olds are every bit as likely to get it and pass it on as any adult. Yet they all share a small room with little to no ventilation for 5-6 hours a day, and are hugging and messing around during their breaks. Anywhere else, fines would be involved for not being Covid safe.

@DipSwimSwoosh

No thank you. As a teacher I would prefer to stay away from mass testing and mask wearing.

How many cases have you had so far?

If

[quote timeforanewstart]@SansaSnark I think ds school hands masks to those who forget
The ones who deliberately won't my answer wouldn't be acceptable
Yes my ds has said its freezing, first year he has taken a coat to school.
Kids mix at lunch because in their eyes they sit next to each other etc and are in the same bubble as my ds says , I have to explain that to him when he has asked to go out with a group at weekend so the kids have mixed messages.
Thats why i think whole year group bubbles should isolate because no one knows for sure whos mixed witj who at lunchtime
The rules are very mixed messages across the board now
And face to face contact is less than 15 mins
Can I ask what unions are doing in this ?? Genuine question [/quote]
My school do hand masks out to those who forget- but sometimes so many have forgotten or broken masks or lost them during the day, there aren't masks available by the end of the day. And it costs money. I know that sounds petty, but the cost of buying all these masks has to come from somewhere- even bought in bulk they are not cheap!

We allow kids to wear coats and base layers, but even then some of them are frozen- obviously needs must but it's not pleasant for them!

I agree that whole year groups need to isolate- we have taken the word of a 13yo child about who he sat with at lunch, which I think is dodgy ground. And AFIAK, some schools don't isolate lunchtime contacts at all.

What do you mean by face to face contact is less than 15 minutes? It isn't for me! The students in my front row can't sit 2m away from the whiteboard, and I need to use it most lessons!

Unions are trying to raise awareness, but not much else.

Exactly. My daughter's school went from okay, to one bubble being sent home, to closing completely for two weeks, in no time at all.

Local secondary went from no cases to about 400 pupils at home over one weekend.

Another now only has a single year group in, having had only a couple of cases until just after half term.

@Comefromaway but some of it is on schools to do as well
I totally support they should get extra funding from goverment to improve and agree that ecv children should not be fined and all that
But I also Think that some posts are about measures that the school could do and you can't blame the goverment for a school not enforcing mask wearing in corridors. They can be held accountable for a lot but not schools not enforcing

@SansaSnark i meant if face to face contact then less than 15 mins triggers an isolation I thought , if was say me and you who spoke in the street
So agree should apply in all circumstances
I would of expected unions to be really on this

Well said @noblegiraffe. It's the pretence that school staff are of no higher risk that I find the most disturbing. To think that a group of people sat around working out ways to manipulate the data, just shows how little value is placed upon their health and their lives.

@noblegiraffe

I'm sure my username in the title will be a red rag to a bull but anyway, if it's there it can't be denied any more. As you'll be aware if you've spent much time on this section, I post regularly about the situation in schools, particularly secondary schools (my patch). Secondary school children are the most infected subset of the population and lack of mitigation measures in schools is causing chaos. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55145313

I have consistently argued for improving mitigation measures in schools in order to reduce transmission, keep schools open for more pupils and to make them safer for teachers, school staff, and vulnerable pupils.

On these threads I have been routinely abused. I've my mental health called into question, my suitability as a teacher, whether I am harming my pupils by being concerned about school safety. I've been questioned as to whether I'm actually a teacher, whether I work for a union or have some secret agenda (aside from my openly stated one to widen awareness of the school situation and my desire for improved safety). The constant refrain has been that I want schools closed. Firstly I was openly told that I wanted schools closed, then that I secretly wanted schools closed. The data I was posting was so bad that it must be a stealth campaign to close schools. That making schools safer is impossible (such a can't-do attitude) so arguing to make them safer is an argument to close them.

And now, there's just this lie constantly posted that there's a massive campaign on MN to close schools. Posts on threads about a 'vocal poster' (i.e. me) who is constantly arguing for this, with an 'echo chamber' of teachers agreeing. It's horseshit.

I think there's a group of posters who see this as a bit of fun. Posting crap and winding up teachers is some sort of weird hobby for them. They have no skin in the game.

But this isn't a game. It's not a hypothetical argument. It's a genuine health and safety issue. I've seen colleagues go down with covid after spending time in classrooms with positive cases. I know a teacher who has been off for months having had it. Fellow teachers on here are catching it. One had to be blue-lighted to hospital. Teachers and school workers are in intensive care or sadly dying. We don't know how many, because this data isn't being published. We don't know how many teachers are off school, because the DfE have deliberately stopped publishing that data.

The situation in schools is not safe. It can be made safer. If you think 'but my school is safe, we've had no/few cases', then please be aware of how quickly things can change, and maybe getting preventative measures in beforehand might be desirable.

My top wish list is:

Mass testing in schools. Particularly when there is a positive case the whole bubble should be tested, to enable effective and targeted isolation and to flush out asymptomatic cases.

Scrapping the policy of only sending home close contacts. It's not working. Relying on children with covid to display the three main adult symptoms is pathetically unreliable as a way of identifying cases and isolating at-risk students. Testing should replace this.

Masks in secondary classrooms (with obvious exemptions and workarounds where needed. This is managed internationally, why should we not be able to?).

Funding for schools to improve ventilation where inadequate and for extra heating to keep the windows open.

No fines for ECV families.

Transparency around schools data, regularly published so the government can be held properly to account.

I don't want schools to close. I want them to be made safer so that they stay open longer to more pupils. If you agree with the premise, parent or teacher, even if you have a different wish list of how to achieve this, please post in support.

Thank you.

100% agree with you and I’m not a teacher. I’m also not cv and neither are my family, however I appreciate anyone who speaks the truth and helps raise awareness of what is happening in schools and the risks that exist. Thank you.

@SansaSnark I did emajl school before they went back asking if they needed us to provide sanitiser or even send in hand soap for toilets etc and would be happy to donate masks
Not that this should come from parents , all schools should of been given extra budget to buy these things or provided with them

Totally agree schools need to be open and safer.

Would love mass testing in schools.

I haven’t read the whole thread (yet) but as a teacher and parent I wanted to say that I completely support what @noblegiraffe is saying.

I categorically don’t want schools to close but I would feel much happier about my own health and safety at work and that of my children in school if additional safety measures were put in place. Routine testing would help enormously, as would official recognition that children can present with different symptoms.

Keep up the good work, OP!

100% agree with the OP.

This is an article from today's Irish Times where they have a column in the education supplement called "secret teacher" who provides insights from a teacher's perspective on the education topics of the day. Just thought this is a fascinating perspective on our Irish mask-compulsory, 1m distances secondary school classrooms. As a parent, I'm just so impressed by our teachers and our kids.

“If speaking is silver, then listening is gold.” This Turkish proverb captures the essence of why I am enjoying teaching so much this year. I have a sneaky suspicion that many of my students are enjoying learning more than they ever have before – some have even dared say so.
I’m speaking a lot less, they are listening more actively, and this combination creates a powerful air of industriousness. Age doesn’t have lower or upper limits when it comes to the feel-good benefits of engaging fully in a task and enjoying the satisfaction of a job well done. Challenging though the Covid measures in schools are, there are unexpected positive effects which must be named and celebrated.
How school-goers have responded to this crisis is admirable, and it is important that we tell them we have noticed and that we are proud of them.
Since the volume and quality of the listening in my classes has rocketed, my students are now the epitome of attentiveness. The impact that has had is staggering to witness.
My speaking time is now largely unbroken, after years of trying to explain things while constantly interrupting myself to correct their behaviour. I seem to do my teaching and get my points across in a fraction of the time – and yet far more effectively. So far my data is qualitative and based on my intuition and observations, but I am confident that students’ results in Christmas assessment.
Our school has an active extracurricular programme, and while students don’t miss school for training there is always some cohort or other gone to a match. Catching up on work missed has never been their strong point, so progress through the curriculum has always been slowed by having to attend to the needs of whoever was most recently missing.

For the first time in my career there are no notes to intercept due to the risk of contamination
When we return to normality (whatever exactly that will look like), there is no reason for this problem to return if schools maintain active use of whatever digital platform they have put in place. Students learning how to use that properly now will serve us all well in the post-Covid learning environment too.
Silence in classrooms this academic year is of the most productive kind. Because the nearest neighbour is a whole metre away, quiet time in class is unhindered by the person fidgeting in the next seat or looking to engage in conversation. For the first time in my career there are no notes to intercept due to the risk of contamination.
Now, in many classrooms while the teacher is speaking, students are fully tuned in. This is the first crucial step in engaging with the content of the lesson. When the quiet time comes, students are now embracing it to really grapple with the task at hand. Where previously there was an irritating hum of other things happening on the sly while I spoke, there is now an almost unnerving aura of tuned-in-ness. It’s akin to the satisfaction of finally getting clear sound on a radio station after a painstaking struggle with the tuning. This apparently small shift has completely transformed student engagement.
In classes in the past, before starting any period of quiet time for students to work independently, there was a need for some students to check exactly what it was they had to do. This inevitably delayed the start of the task for everyone, and kept the teacher very much in the frame when the students should have been demonstrating their ability to apply what had just been taught.

Clarifying questions at this stage were generally of a very basic kind, and quite frankly hard to respond to politely.
From a basic perspective of professionalism and preserving student dignity in schools, it is important that students feel comfortable asking questions. They must, therefore, never sense that we feel their question is a stupid one. And yet, over the years, I have witnessed many classes collectively judge a peer for asking a question that completely betrayed their inattentiveness. Classes do this through atmosphere, very often simply a collective intake of breath which leaves nobody in the room under any illusions about the inappropriateness of the question. By and large, such questions have already been answered. It is always possible to highlight the needlessness of the question by getting a classmate to answer, but the sheer fact of it, and the time-wasting accrued, have by then already tested the patience of both teacher and class.
We must acknowledge and applaud their efforts now, to incentivise and motivate them
Today students get started on such tasks immediately, and so it is evident that they have really listened, and therefore heard better. This generates quality questions at a later stage in the task and ones which are related to the content. Such questions drive the learning forward and raise the bar for everyone in the room.
The very many students who in the past had been on the fence regarding whether to comply and risk appearing overly studious, or rebel and risk underperforming, have now been liberated from the burden of choice. Diligence is higher than it has ever been before, and those who were easily led hold a free pass to compliance and engagement via the strength of the public health message.
Those who were fully committed to disengagement remain a challenge of course, but the large cohort who were just easily led have merrily joined the masses who are fully immersed in classroom life. Again, if we play our cards right, there is no reason why we shouldn’t keep them with us when this is all over

Agree with you.
First pupil case in child 1 school today. First of many I suspect. Same class, child 1 just sits outside the sent home bubble. Child 1 coughed this morning at school (wouldn't have sent him if we saw it at home), called to collect, has been tested today, results back in 8 hrs negative.
He had to be tested to protect the teachers as well as other pupils and their families.

Happy to support all teachers and school staff to keep everyone as safe as can be. Whatever that means. Rota, online, wrapped in thermals, regular testing.

Thank you for such a sensible post.

[quote timeforanewstart]@SansaSnark I did emajl school before they went back asking if they needed us to provide sanitiser or even send in hand soap for toilets etc and would be happy to donate masks
Not that this should come from parents , all schools should of been given extra budget to buy these things or provided with them
[/quote]
That's very nice of you, but I don't think parent donations are a viable way of covering this?

I don't think it's unreasonable to say schools should be given extra funding to help with this!

@SansaSnark absolutely schools should of been given extra funding to help with such measures , these things certainly add up

[quote timeforanewstart]@Comefromaway but some of it is on schools to do as well
I totally support they should get extra funding from goverment to improve and agree that ecv children should not be fined and all that
But I also Think that some posts are about measures that the school could do and you can't blame the goverment for a school not enforcing mask wearing in corridors. They can be held accountable for a lot but not schools not enforcing

[/quote]
I totally agree with you.

But there is nothing I can do about it. My daughter and husband have no choice (other than abandon their course/job) but to go in each day.

Thanks for the support, glad to see so many people in favour of safer schools and that MN really isn’t the hotbed of school closure activism that some try to paint it as.

@MrsMigginsMate
Aw bless, nice try. Its not derailing to comment on another users submission. If I had come out of the blue and introduced a new topic myself then yes. But you're way off base with this.

I think that if just about every post you make is either questioning someone’s mental health because they don’t agree with you, or defending other posters who are doing the same, then I beg to disagree. So bless you right back, love.