So the vaccine is going to be compulsory then?

[Gigheimer]

There was a thread ages ago about the fact people were being tin foil hat about a vaccine being compulsory.

Latest news out they are considering “vaccine passports”, which lets face it, on our news cycle throughout this entire thing it’s been ... prepare them gently with maybes, odd leak here or there, test the messaging, oh look the guesses were right

So no one is going to pin anyone down and spear them, but it’s basically the same thing. If you can’t enter a shop/leisure/work place domestically without a vaccine. It’s fucking compulsory.

Where did free will go? Where did vaccine uptake because we have trust go? I’m not anti-vaccine, had them all, even TB. But this isn’t on I terms of civil liberties. Does no one else feel concern at a general use of this crisis into nanny state?

@JinglingHellsBells

Maybe you need to step back a bit *@Gigheimer* and save your anger for the reality? Mouthing off on a forum might be helping you anger but it's not going to change anything at all.

Whatever is decided may be the same across most of the western world.

Businesses like pubs have a right to allow whoever they like into their premises- so if they want to see a vaccine passport they can do so.

What is clear about your posts is that you assume anyone who isn't as vocal on this as you is ignorant, stupid or both.

You don't have a monopoly on intelligence or understanding of the vaccine.

Why not wait and see before ranting?

I haven't seen a rant

I think that the message is for people to look more carefully at what might be happening around them at the moment. It might not be as simple as what you can see.

The world is changing around us, very rapidly - opening up uncomfortable issues.

Talking openly about the possibility of social exclusion of the unvaccinated and also of the issue of bodily autonomy and a persons right to say no to a medical treatment that is invasive are extremely important and sensitive issues. Things that we might let pass now might lead to further encroachment on our privacy and autonomy in the years to come.

This vaccine

Protects the vaxed person - although they can still get CV just not as bad
There's not enough evidence to determine if you will transmit the virus to other people
There is still no info about when/if a booster will be required.
You are not protected for the first 28 days.

There were 10 severe cases of COVID-19 observed in the trial, with nine of the cases occurring in the placebo group and one in the BNT162b2 vaccinated group.

How it can be aimed at 16 year olds also raises a lot of questions considering it was only tested on those 18+

For more about who they tested and when the trials started and more

www.pfizer.com/science/coronavirus/vaccine

I keep seeing this title and it’s just infuriating.
If you don’t want the vaccine, just don’t get it

@Joynot

I keep seeing this title and it’s just infuriating. If you don’t want the vaccine, just don’t get it

This.

As if it would be compulsory.

It's going to take ages to get it to all who want it.

I suspect at least some of those claiming to be anti vaxxers are in fact people trying to put others off - so that they can queue jump!

@Gigheimer Maybe ask. mnhq to change the thread title.

Has there been anti-vaxxers on the thread or just people asking questions, talking about their concerns etc?

CanIgoout I haven’t seen an antivaxxer. I have seen a split of those questioning THIS vaccine. And those happy with the vaccine but questioning the legitimacy of potential compulsion.

I would change the title but to be honest I think it’s still a fair question, there is potential for back door forced compliance and it has prompted discussion.

Saying “as if it’s going to be compulsory” isn’t a debate on the way it could be so maybe I’m a bit stubborn but I’m sort of not ok being bullied into changing it by those who accuse anyone questioning of lack of critical thought, but failing to apply it themselves 🤷🏻‍♀️

Or maybe I’m just a stubborn cow Could be either to be fair!

Tbh I wouldn't either, just got fed up of the very helpful sarky comments about the title.

Backdoor policies should be a big concern. Just look at the mask thing. Before it was introduced there was lots of posters proclaiming it wouldn't be compulsory, yet last time I went out I'm sure it was. (Unless excluded)

Admit it OP. You're on the government payroll. Demand is too high and they need to put people off. When do you get the vaccine your payment? Or have you already had it?

Btw when I said 'As if it would be compulsory', that wasn't to debate. You asked a question and I answered.

So you're concerned about potential effects of the vaccine. Yet you don't want to wear a mask to protect against the effects of Covid or Long Covid

@SheepandCow

I suspect at least some of those claiming to be anti vaxxers are in fact people trying to put others off - so that they can queue jump!

I don't think any of those who have concerns on this thread have an agenda.

But if you think that is their agenda I think you are delusional

SheepandCow ah sarcasm, the last trench for an inability to provide logical argument and counter argument.

Probably time to bow out now.

Where's the sarcasm?

No, not delusional. I have a very clear head tonight, although I probably should indeed bow out soon. It's nearly time for bed.

@cologne4711

I am coming back to this thread to say that I think some people (me included) have spectactualt missed the pint here.

The vaccine has only been proven to prevent the illness. It has not been proven to prevent transmission.

Therefore there is no compelling need for everyone to be vaccinated, only those who are likely to be seriously ill. Yes I know about long covid, and there is no harm in having the vaccine to help yourself, but there is currently no evidence that having it will prevent me passing to someone in a supermarket (especially if they have been vaccinated anyway).

Therefore no need for proof someone has been vaccinated (countries may require it because they don't want to have to deal with medical care for foreigners).

So if you want the vaccine, have it. But there's nothing to be gained by (effectively) forced vaccination.

This post is misleading.

Your information on a vaccine not preventing transmission is centred on the Pfizer vaccine. That is correct but let's not forget there are several different vaccines close behind that work differently.

The AstraZeneca vaccine (Oxford) works in a more "traditional" way in that it is a live vaccine and it has been proven to prevent transmission. This vaccine is the cheapest and easiest to store and transport and I think the likely vaccine to be rolled out on a mass scale.

Immunisation programmes are always the safest and most reliable way to achieve herd immunity, and the more people vaccinated, the safer the population.

"No one's stopping you. But equally I'm going to point out that extrapolating from your experience that 'many people in the NHS view old people as expendable' is hyperbolic and I'm going to damn well challenge it."

Challenge what you like, just don't tell me what to do.

"Pot. Kettle.

If there's any hysteria or polarisation on this thread then you're the chief ringleader! And really... what has BLM got to do with any of this? People don't want to be killed... that honestly sounds like a pretty simple to understand, basic human right, what is there to 'debate'?

Personally, I don't care if you take the vaccine or not. I also don't care if you get stuck in a lockdown as a consequence of YOUR choice. And why is a label so important to you? Grow up. If you refuse a national vaccine then it follows that you are an anti-vaxxer. That is not an insult it is a tautology.

And on that note I didn't bring up anti vaxxer, I just pointed out that 'the cap fits'."

You live in a very black and white world with few grey areas.

Black lives matter as a concept is unarguable. BLM as a political movement or ideology can certainly be questioned and has been by many black people themselves. It's the same issue as those who see feminism as being absolutely synonymous with equality between the sexes.

You can be broadly in favour of vaccinations and still have reservations about this specific one. The term 'anti-vaxer' implies disbelief in all.

@Joynot

I keep seeing this title and it’s just infuriating. If you don’t want the vaccine, just don’t get it

Yep easy innit!

@AldiAisleofCrap

Good, if you are to selfish to protect the vulnerable who can’t be vaccinated, then I am not going to lose sleep if you can’t go on holiday or to your local pub.

Just that.

'Challenge what you like, just don't tell me what to do.'

I didn't. I just said it was unhelpful. You can carry on spreading the idea that many health professionals think old people are dispensable based on your perception of one doctor. As I say, no one is stopping you. But what you can't do is expect people to just agree with you or not present a different perspective.

I will be flamed for linking to the Daily Mail but still:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9013955/WHO-looks-possible-e-vaccination-certificates-travel.html

[quote trulydelicious]I will be flamed for linking to the Daily Mail but still:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9013955/WHO-looks-possible-e-vaccination-certificates-travel.html[/quote]
Nothing new. Lots of places require proof of various vaccinations prior to entry. That's why there's so many travel clinics across the UK providing those jabs.

At least this will be free - unlike passports, which are also required for travel.

Interesting from England’s Deputy Chief medical officer -

Prof Van-Tam told BBC News: "If we can get through phase one [of the priority list] and it is a highly effective vaccine and there is very, very high up take, then we could in theory take out 99% of hospitalisations and deaths related to Covid 19.

I do feel for that 1%.

Suspect most of the further deaths and hospitalisations will be in the 40-50 age group.

Likely those with undiagnosed conditions like diabetes and hypertension - known as silent killers, because their symptoms often get overlooked until later stages. Quite common in 40 somethings.

The risk of death until 40 is 0.2.
It doubles from 40 to 0.4.
40-50 year olds should not be included with 18-40 year olds. Their risk is much higher.

@bumbleymummy

Looks like WHO don't agree with your theory. They think that if you have acquired natural immunity you still need a vaccine and immunity passports. Maddness!!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9013955/WHO-looks-possible-e-vaccination-certificates-travel.html#comments