Test and Trace is 'working on making immunity passports to allow Brits to prove they have been vaccinated against Covid-19 using NHS app'

[trulydelicious]

Just seen this

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9000479/Test-Trace-working-making-immunity-passports.html#reader-comments

This is getting out of control now in my view and all this rethoric is disturbing and irresponsible.

Nobody should be coerced into having vaccines:

1. that use new technology
2. for which long term side effects are not known (precisely because the technology for most of them is new)
3. when pharmaceutical companies producing them are bearing no responsibility for potential side effects

The vaccines should not be touted as a 'passport' to recoup our 'freedoms'

Just to clarify, I'm not anti-vaxx (we have had all childhood vaccines and the flu vaccine)

@Crazycatlady83

I’m not sure why people are still comparing covid to seasonal flu! Covid isn’t the flu! If it was the flu, we wouldn’t have lockdown! We locked down because covid isn’t the flu!

chicken pox has killed millions of people globally so I would suggest also not the same as covid

I am not comparing the diseases themselves to eachother. I was discussing attitudes and regulations to the giving of the vaccines.

No flu and chicken pox aren't exactly the same as covid 19. Are there are diseases that are exactly the same as other diseases? I gave those two as examples.

Should a company executive on a business trip be denied boarding because he/she refused the vaccine due to safety concerns?

Yes.

I think these restrictions are likely to be short term. There are already plenty of restrictions on movement, and it makes sense to give freedom back to those who are vaccinated first (even if they are in the ~10% who don’t get immunity)

I am very hopeful that we will reach herd immunity without the antivaxers (although less so reading this thread). If R0=3 and the vaccine is 90% effective then we only need 74% of the population to have it. I hope there are enough sensible and non-exempt people out there.

At that stage we have herd immunity, and the antivaxers can have a free ride and get their freedoms back. They haven’t contributed to society but they will still benefit.

But you can’t compare the attitudes either because the effects of the illnesses are completely different. Of course we don’t vaccinate for chicken pox because it doesn’t kill millions. We don’t have a vaccine for the common cold, cos it doesn’t kill millions (so not worth developing a vaccine!)

**Are there are diseases that are exactly the same as other diseases?

There are no other diseases like covid. That’s the whole point! If there was, we would probably have vaccinated for them as well! This is completely unprecedented. Hence the reason we lockdown, hence the reason we closed schools etc. An unprecedented time calls for unprecedented measures.

Ebola is probably the closest example I can give and this is yet to have a vaccine. But it isn’t as contagious before people show symptoms and as far as I am aware isn’t spread by asymptomatic carriers. Also no vaccine Probably because it is mainly in third world countries so big pharm haven’t been as forthcoming with their research because there hasn’t been as much money thrown at it.

From the provisional information released the only contra-indication appears to be anaphylaxis to the vaccine or a component of it

Although all children under 12 appear to be totally excluded and 12-18 very restricted

"But that goes for lots of things. Seasonal flu for example (not as dangerous as covid 19), and chicken pox. We don't vaccinate everyone for those to protect vulnerable people. Should we?"

We do vaccinate children against flu to protect the vulnerable as they are one of the main drivers of infection

Are there any vaccines which have shown delayed reactions in the order of a few years?

I can't think of any.

Perhaps one of the posters who is concerned about this could say which ?

There are of course diseases which can have long term consequences. SSPE (invariably fatal) emerges years after measles , but there have been no cases at all associated with the vaccine

[quote bumbleymummy]@musicalfrog as is the case for other diseases that we don’t all have to be vaccinated for/prove our vaccination status. Eg flu. Some people can’t be vaccinated against it but we don’t vaccinate the entire population to protect them. Chickenpox can be deadly to vulnerable adults but we don’t insist that people be vaccinated against it to protect them. Herd immunity from natural infection is considered good enough for that.

@TheSunIsStillShining IFR for different ages from the BMJ[/quote]
You do see this sentence:
"...regional estimates of the predicted... "
And this was based on June's numbers.
Atm consensus in the science world is that case fatality rate of covid is between 0.23 - 1.5%.
Just for reference: inluenza: 0.1%, chickenpox in adults 0.02%
So it is misleading to cite an article that predicts something based on partial information and is very out of date.
And for both flu and chickenpox we have vaccinations.

re:chickenpox. maybe not here, but in many european countries it is mandatory to get vaccinated if a child wants to be admitted to school.

"Sure, but we can't possibly know about any potential long term side effects until a long time has passed."

How long is long-term?

1. I'm not sure that vaccine trials follow participants for longer than 12 months
2. when talking about long-term (e.g. 10 years) it is pretty difficult to prove or disprove that it is caused by a vaccine ten years previously so I'm not sure you'll know if there are any long term effects anyway

@JS87

"But that goes for lots of things. Seasonal flu for example (not as dangerous as covid 19), and chicken pox. We don't vaccinate everyone for those to protect vulnerable people. Should we?"

We do vaccinate children against flu to protect the vulnerable as they are one of the main drivers of infection

That's still not compulsory and there aren't any consequences (apart from getting/spreading flu!) for not having the flu vaccine. Will it only be compulsory for the main drivers of covid 19 to be vaccinated? Crazycatlady I really don't know how many people die from chicken pox or its complications, but apparently many people want it so that they won't have to have time off work to look after infected children. It's also more severe in adults. Of course no disease is exactly the same as another one, but comparisons were made to yellow fever vaccinations/vaccination certificates earlier in the thread.

@SexTrainGlue

Are there any vaccines which have shown delayed reactions in the order of a few years?

I can't think of any.

Perhaps one of the posters who is concerned about this could say which ?

I said that, but I don't know. I don't think I need to be able to name one inorder to be concerned. People have the right to be concerned, question things and discuss without having all the answers.

In some European countries children can only go to kindergarden/school if they have the full vaccination plan up to that point. Parents only get child related benefits if kids are in formal education.
So it is the most natural thing to have an immunization booklet for every person. My mum has her's from the 50s, I have mine from the 70s and my son has his from the 00s.
And when we get the covid vaccine we will have that stamped in as well and recorded. What's the big deal about it?

How do people feel about the NHS paying for the consequences of your choice not to vaccinate if you do get sick from a preventable disease?

@JS87 “ We do vaccinate children against flu to protect the vulnerable as they are one of the main drivers of infection”

We offer it to them but plenty of parents choose not to give it to their children and we don’t demand proof of vaccination from them or prevent them from travelling because of it.

@TheSunIsStillShining You are stating the overall IFR - it is lower in younger people and higher in older people.

Yes, we do have vaccines for flu and cp (just as we now have (several) for cv). We don’t require proof of having them or restrict people’s movement for not having them.

No we don't, because it's not come to that. We haven't curtailed liberties to prevent infection from those diseases either. But it could come to that if any of the currently vaccination- prevented diseases were to recur because of sufficient numbers of anti vaxxers.

@longestlurkerever probably the same way they feel about people getting sick from smoking and obesity related illness?

@longestlurkerever

How do people feel about the NHS paying for the consequences of your choice not to vaccinate if you do get sick from a preventable disease?

This is a relevant point. Lots of things are preventable though. The NHS treats people for lots of preventable things.

Don't worry, I am not in favour of leaving people to die because of their own stubborn refusal to weigh up the evidence (which as it happens I don't think is the main reason for smoking or obesity) I just wondered whether it cast a different slant on it for anyone. Imo accepting vaccinations recommended by the NHS is part of the social contract and yes I put other vaccinations in the same category.

People have the right to be concerned, question things and discuss without having all the answers

I'm not asking you to have the answers, I'm trying to clarify the question. Because if there were any immunisations which had long term side erects, then there would be a starting point for examining whether there are any similarities in action and thus seeking the answer.

Do you ask about potential long term effects when prescribed any other medicines (preventative or otherwise), and if somwhat were you told then?

I was simply responding to a statement that we don’t vaccinate people to protect vulnerable from the flu. This is why we offer the flu vaccine to children. I wasn’t commenting on forced vaccination/ restrictions for unvaccinated etc.

@SexTrainGlue

People have the right to be concerned, question things and discuss without having all the answers

I'm not asking you to have the answers, I'm trying to clarify the question. Because if there were any immunisations which had long term side erects, then there would be a starting point for examining whether there are any similarities in action and thus seeking the answer.

Do you ask about potential long term effects when prescribed any other medicines (preventative or otherwise), and if somwhat were you told then?

Yes of course I ask about long term effects (and short term) of the medicines I take. I take three different medicines. Two of them require regular blood tests to make sure they aren't causing more harm than good.

[quote trulydelicious]@diplodocusinermine

the OP pops up on every vaccination thread spreading disinformation and concern.

I don't spread disinformation, but I am truly concerned, yes[/quote]
If you are truly concerned help everyone out.

Make an appointment with your GP telephone will do, write down all your questions, ask your GP everything you want to know and let us know the informed answers.

Much more effective than posting on an open forum.

When I have medicine concerns I talk to my GP and pharmacist, you know what they are actually informed about these things and if there is anything they can't fully answer they research and call me back.

It's great having free access to people who know their stuff.

Call your GP. They are the one to discuss your legitimate concerns with instead of an endless forum cycle.

@Aragog

Do you have the same concerns about countries who already have entry requirements, such as those which require visitors to their country having had a Yellow Fever vaccination?

I have had the Yellow Fever vaccine.

But more to the point, the problem with Covid is that the restrictions may end up being global rather than applied only by some countries