Government denial over schools issues will cause deaths this Christmas

[noblegiraffe]

I just can't get my head around how utterly crazy the government Christmas policy is.

Secondary school kids are the most infected subset of the population with it now estimated that more than 1 in 50 of them are positive. As they are children, most of them will never be tested as they either are asymptomatic, or will display different symptoms to the main three that are required to trigger a test (councils are overruling this in some parts of England and asking parents to use a more sensible list of symptoms).

Schools mostly break up on 18th December, 5 days before the Christmas relaxation period begins and people start taking advantage of this to mix with other households indoors, in poorly ventilated small rooms, which as scientists warn, is a terrible idea. twitter.com/devisridhar/status/1331931594400149506?s=21

Closing schools a week earlier (or moving online) would give 2 weeks out of school before Christmas day, which would reduce the infection rate in school children significantly (we saw a dip in the infection rate just in one week over half term) and make it safer for them to mix with other households, particularly if people took advantage of those two weeks to significantly reduce their contacts and other risks.

Some schools took it upon themselves to protect their own communities by changing the term dates to close a week earlier. The DfE has overruled this and forced them to stay open.
schoolsweek.co.uk/overruled-dfes-sweeping-coronavirus-powers-force-trust-into-early-christmas-holiday-u-turn/

Because of the tier system, if families don't get together at Christmas during the relaxation period, when their children pose a much higher risk, they will not be able to see their families properly for Christmas at all. Essentially Christmas is being funnelled into a time period which is insanely risky due to it coming shortly after children mixing freely in unsafe schools with significant numbers of undiscovered infections.

I know the DfE have been reading this board. I understand why you want schools open, but lying to people about the risks as you have is dangerous and immoral. Transparency is needed so that people can make their own informed risk assessments, not propaganda about 'safe schools' and 'saving Christmas'.

Then I’m not sure what the issue is, tbh, angelina

The premise of the OP is that schools should close a week early. I don’t feel they should.

There is a difference between a blanket closure and a closure borne out of immediate necessity. As I have said, the aim is to minimise inconvenience. It can’t be removed entirely.

We're not seeing anyone at Christmas and so have no need of isolation before travelling. I can't protect my children's grandparents by that decision though, if the overall result of Christmas is a general increase in covid in the community. So I'd be relieved if I heard that local schools were switching to at least optional home learning for the last week before Christmas, because that would reduce the numbers packed in close in schools during that week, and so slightly fewer would be infected by the time they break up. I'd also be relieved if they were to offer optional home learning for the first week after Christmas, again so that numbers in classrooms were lower, so more infections picked up at Christmas would be stopped from going further. Both pupils and staff would be safer during those two weeks if schools were a bit emptier with more pupils working remotely.

People talk about it being up to individual families to decide whether or not to see grandparents, but I think they're overlooking the fact that the family members being visited aren't just grandparents, and even those who are won't necessarily be end points of transmission. Kids can pass the virus on to aunts, uncles and cousins just as much as grandparents, and that isn't all fine just because they're less likely to die. Those aunts, uncles and cousins can then spread the virus more widely in their own communities. This will end up affecting all of us, including those of us who have sensibly decided to avoid family mixing this Christmas. If there's a way of reducing how much virus gets spread at Christmas with only minimal effect on education (and no effect on childcare if the staying at home is optional), then I wish the government would allow it. Failing that I hope that all those who would take advantage of permission to keep their kids at home for those weeks just do it anyway.

We’re still in lockdown? Otherwise cinemas, theatres, cafe, restaurant, pubs, crowded shopping streets and markets, public transport, soft play. If you’re looking at transmission social distancing only reduces it, and crucially elderly people will be in those places. Grandparents looking after children in homes. If we’re trying to protect grandparents at Christmas then don’t we have to be aware of the alternate risks?

Yabu

Herc-the criminal courts? Prisons? Hospitals?
I do support the schools closing, but only with mandated online learning and cancellation of national exams.

I can appreciate peoples concerns that Christmas and the mixing and bubbles that will involve for lots of families is a bit too close for comfort to the dates schools are breaking up, and that inevitably they will be lots of mixing going on, but I will be extremely hacked off if school closed early so that others can have a jolly at Christmas!

It may save lives but only as a precaution and to mitigate people’s recklessness, how about not being reckless in the first place and contain the Christmas festivities for one year?? Children have lost so much school time this year and the routine and sense of normality that comes with that, closing schools or messing around with term dates so they can mix with people they don’t need to mix with and could go for a nice walk with instead is bonkers!

Not many on this thread seem to

CallMeAngelina Did you read my post about that very point re last min v planned closures?

Yet given what we know about the virus, infections in schools and the reduction in infection rate among secondary school aged children over half-term, it would seem that starting the Xmas holiday a week earlier probably is in the public health interest at the moment.

I agree that if the absolutely bonkers plan of Xmas bubbles is going ahead, closing schools a week earlier is the easiest most effective way of mitigating the increased risk that travelling and mixing indoors for extended periods of time.

Another teacher: we are happy to teach secondary online for a week it makes not one jot of difference for such a short period of time. Let's help Christmas be safer

Hophop26 I have no intention or desire to have a jolly at Xmas. We won't be mixing.

But lots of people will, as they have been given permission to by the govt.

@Hophop26

I can appreciate peoples concerns that Christmas and the mixing and bubbles that will involve for lots of families is a bit too close for comfort to the dates schools are breaking up, and that inevitably they will be lots of mixing going on, but I will be extremely hacked off if school closed early so that others can have a jolly at Christmas!

It may save lives but only as a precaution and to mitigate people’s recklessness, how about not being reckless in the first place and contain the Christmas festivities for one year?? Children have lost so much school time this year and the routine and sense of normality that comes with that, closing schools or messing around with term dates so they can mix with people they don’t need to mix with and could go for a nice walk with instead is bonkers!

Not many on this thread seem to

Totally agree

@FlowerAndBloom

Another teacher: we are happy to teach secondary online for a week it makes not one jot of difference for such a short period of time. Let's help Christmas be safer

And traditionally the last week of primary is doing things that just can't be done this year eg concerts, plays, parties.

I appreciate the childcare headache, but people are going to have even more of than come January when infection rates increase.

The same old teachers wanting to close schools. Its boring now. Don't want to teach then find another job
Most schools are doing great. No need to shut.
Vulnerable people should not mix at Christmas this year before the vaccine comes out on spring.
Children need education, not more time off. Anyway if they have longer off most will just mix more anyway.

Herc-the criminal courts? Prisons? Hospitals?

None of those are freely accessible to teenagers off school to go and mix in though. It is vanishingly unlikely they will come into contact with more people if schools went online for the last week.

Aren’t windows meant to be open all the time in schools? Whether the kids are cold or not, they’re not being shut until it’s very cold outside?

Most schools are doing great

Obviously you didn't learn data interpretation in school.

MadameBlobby it's the govt who have given people to mix indoors for protracted periods of time over Xmas.

I've got no intention of doing it, but I can understand that 'having everyone together for Xmas' is an important thing for lots of families.

christinarosseti19 My work can deal with me being off with isolation with no warning. They are expecting it at some point. But not if several of us need to be off at the same time at short notice.

Why is that so hard for some posters to get their heads round?

"Children need education, not more time off.2

Yes, more time off in January when infection rates rise after the Xmas mixing is exactly what most people want to avoid.

@Welcometonowhere

Of course it’s relevant, if your school isn’t one of the ones closing.

Arguing that all schools should be closed because some have to is like arguing everyone should be late for work because two people were in a traffic jam on a particular road. It makes no sense at all.

This

Stupid to shut schools early or if they have no infections

Here are some Scottish Mumsnetters talking about what closing schools early would do to them:

But personally, it's going to cause me a whole lot of problems for childcare. We're we're due to finish up on 23rd so it's an extra 6 days childcare for me. Grandarents can't help, I've already been allocated my Xmas annual leave and dp works in a hospital and his shifts are set now. I'm not sure what we're going to do.

I’m absolutely scuppered for childcare work is so so busy. I get it, I do, but on a purely selfish level I’m thinking wtf do I do sad

I'll be scuppered if they do introduce it. I've got time off between Christmas and New Year for the first time ever but will have to juggle it with dh and his shifts. I'm nhs and he's also a key worker. Not planning on meeting up with family at Christmas as my dad is elderly and in poor health. Dd is 14 and can be left on her own but ds can't (autism and epilepsy). Ds will struggle anyway during the holidays as it's a big change in routine and will take a while to settle down again when school goes back - the longer he's off the harder it is.

I'm not happy about it. Kids have missed so much school and need to spend as much time as possible learning. I've had a child off nearly 4 weeks and despite being told online learning is available to those at home, they've had one piece of work from each of three subjects (s1 so lots of subjects for context). I also have another DC in an exam year who cannot study or learn independently.

i disagree with it. For parents of younger children it's ridiculously late to introduce, most working parents don't have a spare 2 weeks of annual leave that they are able to book and take at this short notice so who is going to do the childcare? You're back to the schools being open for childcare for essential workers which just defeats the object of them closing.

I think these are valid points that should be listened to.

Nicknacky eh?

If several of you have to self-isolate at the same time, then workplaces will have to cope in some shape or form.

That's what the NHS has been doing since March, and schools are doing (until they're forced to close as many have) at the moment.

I'd need childcare as a teacher if schools shut early. I can still see the benefit to it.

There are very few schools with no cases.

@christinarossetti19

MadameBlobby it's the govt who have given people to mix indoors for protracted periods of time over Xmas.

I've got no intention of doing it, but I can understand that 'having everyone together for Xmas' is an important thing for lots of families.

And this is where are back to personal responsibility. Just because the government have said it can happen doesn’t mean it’s advisable or wise.

People including the elderly can choose to protect themselves by not mixing with relatives. I don’t see why my kids should miss school so granny can have a knees up at Christmas.

If several of you have to self-isolate at the same time, then workplaces will have to cope in some shape or form

Shut A&E? Close the Maternity Ward? Stop carers going into homes? Leaving many vulnerable people isolated?

But yeah everything can just carry on......