Government denial over schools issues will cause deaths this Christmas

[noblegiraffe]

I just can't get my head around how utterly crazy the government Christmas policy is.

Secondary school kids are the most infected subset of the population with it now estimated that more than 1 in 50 of them are positive. As they are children, most of them will never be tested as they either are asymptomatic, or will display different symptoms to the main three that are required to trigger a test (councils are overruling this in some parts of England and asking parents to use a more sensible list of symptoms).

Schools mostly break up on 18th December, 5 days before the Christmas relaxation period begins and people start taking advantage of this to mix with other households indoors, in poorly ventilated small rooms, which as scientists warn, is a terrible idea. twitter.com/devisridhar/status/1331931594400149506?s=21

Closing schools a week earlier (or moving online) would give 2 weeks out of school before Christmas day, which would reduce the infection rate in school children significantly (we saw a dip in the infection rate just in one week over half term) and make it safer for them to mix with other households, particularly if people took advantage of those two weeks to significantly reduce their contacts and other risks.

Some schools took it upon themselves to protect their own communities by changing the term dates to close a week earlier. The DfE has overruled this and forced them to stay open.
schoolsweek.co.uk/overruled-dfes-sweeping-coronavirus-powers-force-trust-into-early-christmas-holiday-u-turn/

Because of the tier system, if families don't get together at Christmas during the relaxation period, when their children pose a much higher risk, they will not be able to see their families properly for Christmas at all. Essentially Christmas is being funnelled into a time period which is insanely risky due to it coming shortly after children mixing freely in unsafe schools with significant numbers of undiscovered infections.

I know the DfE have been reading this board. I understand why you want schools open, but lying to people about the risks as you have is dangerous and immoral. Transparency is needed so that people can make their own informed risk assessments, not propaganda about 'safe schools' and 'saving Christmas'.

Yes but angelina it is still individual schools closing (whether to a bubble, or to the whole school) on a case by case basis, which is sensible.

My school send home ‘close contacts’ of anyone who tests positive. It probably isn’t brilliant, but I’m stumped if I have a better system.

I was very much in favour of closing schools in March, but I can’t deny that doing so had a serious and an ongoing impact for thousands of children. I am therefore very much in favour of keeping them open now.

@Welcometonowhere

It isn’t a new notion, for me at any rate giraffe. I’m not generally in favour of informing adults who they can see and when. Assuming they are not serving time at HMP, that is.

So you are anti-lockdown?

@cologne4711

And closing all schools because some schools are in trouble is not a solution.

There have been three cases at ds' 6th form college. It would be ludicrous for them to close - as it is they are doing a week of remote learning immediately before the end of term.

Quite. It isn’t even not a solution - it’s nonsensical.

My school send home ‘close contacts’ of anyone who tests positive. It probably isn’t brilliant, but I’m stumped if I have a better system.

You’ve not read my threads then.

Testing the bubble when there are positive cases and flushing out the asymptomatic cases that accompany those who have symptoms would be a massive and immediate improvement.

@Welcometonowhere

It isn’t a new notion, for me at any rate giraffe. I’m not generally in favour of informing adults who they can see and when. Assuming they are not serving time at HMP, that is.

I know, I am actually more amazed that anyone didn't always think this way. Like if I had D&V, I wouldn't decide to drop in and visit my parents, I didn't need to be told by the government not to. Personal responsibility really isn't a novel idea for most of us.

I honestly had no idea that people need such specific policies from the government to make their decisions.

Even taking kids out early is still a risk.

Less of a risk i agree.

But children are likely to be asymptomatic.

And a fair few of the parents will be too.

So 2 weeks is really not enough to guarantee there is no covid in house (if child has become infectious when schools are shut)

@TheKeatingFive

Break up 11th December. Kids all stay at home to isolate for two weeks before mixing with wider family

Well there’s your first problem.

A very significant proportion won’t isolate.

Rendering the entire thing pointless. Yet more time off school for minimum benefit.

I wasn't suggesting more time off school. Just moving the whole holiday forward so that Christmas falls at the very end.

@pontypridd

Do we get fined if we say it’s to protect the grandparents *@MarshaBradyo*?

No idea! I doubt it but it’s up to you re what you say. I wouldn’t let it stop you though if you are concerned.

Am I anti lockdown? On the whole, no, any more than I am anti speed limits or anti the smoking ban. Laws and rules in place for everybody’s safety and everyone’s wellbeing are one thing.

Where we run into difficulties is when those rules and laws have a disproportionately negative impact on one section of society without clear positives to counterbalance. To use an earlier example, someone might be held up by being forced to stick to a 30 mph speed zone, but that is a minor inconvenience compared to someone’s life being potentially saved as a result.

Closing schools is not in the same category as the above. It is an action with direct and indirect consequences that seeps into many aspects of society. I will happily talk about some here, but I am sure I don’t really have to.

To do so to ensure that elderly relatives can be seen at Christmas is not the right thing to do because unlike speeding it is a decision that should be made by individuals. It isn’t the same as telling someone they can’t drive at 40 mph. More akin to informing someone they can’t have a car at all.

Common sense is the best approach, I generally find.

I'm a secondary teacher with secondary age DC. We told both families we don't want to risk anything so we'd like to see people in the second week instead. Then the new guidelines came out saying 23rd-27th. So they've all got bubbles now that don't include us and because we wanted to be careful we can't see anyone. Honestly I'm gutted.

And other relatives with kids are going to grandparents so it's just our DC missing out. I am trying to do the right thing and suddenly I'm the unreasonable one, I'm the baddie.

Sorry, I'm recovering from Covid that has ripped through my school and I'm a bit emotional. It's shit. I don't want anyone else to get it.

I wasn't suggesting more time off school. Just moving the whole holiday forward so that Christmas falls at the very end.

There’s no point though, if isolation doesn’t happen.

And you create issues with childcare provision as people have booked in their holidays to cover schools being closed ages ago.

Common sense is the best approach, I generally find.

After what I've seen on the internet in the last 6th months I have a very low opinion on people using their "common sense". That seems to involve saying "just little me won't matter".

I’m not sure about that either giraffe, because of overlap in different friendships in different schools snd siblings and contacts we cannot know about.

It’s not easy. I have a relative who tested positive (in my bubble) - I somehow managed to avoid testing negative, despite him sneezing right in my face (special needs!) I wonder if I’d already had it back in April / May and didn’t have any symptoms. Impossible to say. But I can’t say for definite so I try to be as considerate as possible towards others while employing common sense. I think most of us do.

I expect some parents will take children out early if they are worried about mixing. Those who aren’t mixing at Christmas or need to keep children in school won’t. So it will naturally lead to less kids in school. I expect a lot would just go out and mix if school was shut.
I’m having difficulty reconciling a rate of 1 in 50 with a local rate which has dropped to less than 100 per 100000. Aren’t we talking about pockets of infection? We should be mobilising rapid testing to those areas, including schools. It seems to have worked pretty well in Liverpool

@Witchend

Common sense is the best approach, I generally find.

After what I've seen on the internet in the last 6th months I have a very low opinion on people using their "common sense". That seems to involve saying "just little me won't matter".

I think they key word there is “on the internet”

I honestly had no idea that people need such specific policies from the government to make their decisions.

Because some people are absolutely stupid and put everyone else at risk with their stupid decisions....like eating out to help out every day when that was introduced (another stupid government idea by the way) and not being able to go a year without a holiday abroad. So there has to be government intervention to stop these people harming others. If they were only harming themselves it would be good riddance to a stupid gene pool but sadly they aren’t.

And closing all schools because some schools are in trouble is not a solution.
Precisely. My school has had one teacher case, two pupils (one asymptomatic) a d only contacts close on searing plan isolating do no years groups ‘bubbles’ out. Like other schools near us. So closing is a total overreaction. Lots if he ‘elderly’ are probably only too happy to have an excuse to avoid reluctant family members anyway. Let them decide if they want to ‘risk’ it.

Overall I would prefer the message of caution to be reiterated. People who want to SI with their dc do in last week.

Classes are emptier and more space is possible.

I don't think moving the whole holiday forward is fair on school staff. School holidays are set in stone so I don't think its fair to mess to mess with them. And what about teachers who have young dc, childcare is likely still to be closed at that point for many. So basically it still gives the rest of us a headache to sort childcare for the early week in Dec, but then also adds in difficulties for teachers. I don't see how that will benefit anyone.

And let’s face it if you’re in a hard hit area you’re not exactly blind to the fact you’ve had to isolate / close classes.

If you’re in an area that hasn’t been hit the extra risk is low.

Is there any possibility we could be a little more respectful with language

People are allowed to assess their own level of risk.

They can go on holiday.

They can eat out in restaurants.

They can see their families at Christmas.

All the above are acceptable. I certainly don’t recall signing anything stating that I was going to live hermit like until covid vanishes. I certainly wouldn’t dream of purposefully putting anyone at risk, and I will and do wear masks, distance from others, wash my hands and ensure regular testing.

But I am a 40 year old woman and if I decide I wish to sit in a restaurant, I shall do so.

StarryFire
I also think the lack of provision from schools during the original lockdown has made the government and parents extremely wary of closing them again.

The lack of provision had nothing to do with the unions and everything to do with the lack of guidance from the government who also stopped the curriculum.

The unions have in many ways shot themselves in the foot with their opposition to online teaching, marking and one-to-one support.

Which has never happened.

And lets be totally honest the main reason that parents don't want schools to close has little to do with education and more to do with being able to work and get money.

@Welcometonowhere

Is there any possibility we could be a little more respectful with language

People are allowed to assess their own level of risk.

They can go on holiday.

They can eat out in restaurants.

They can see their families at Christmas.

All the above are acceptable. I certainly don’t recall signing anything stating that I was going to live hermit like until covid vanishes. I certainly wouldn’t dream of purposefully putting anyone at risk, and I will and do wear masks, distance from others, wash my hands and ensure regular testing.

But I am a 40 year old woman and if I decide I wish to sit in a restaurant, I shall do so.

Which is why the government have to close things and make new laws else everyone would be doing exactly as they please and life would be even more shit than it is now

@FrippEnos

StarryFire I also think the lack of provision from schools during the original lockdown has made the government and parents extremely wary of closing them again.

The lack of provision had nothing to do with the unions and everything to do with the lack of guidance from the government who also stopped the curriculum.

The unions have in many ways shot themselves in the foot with their opposition to online teaching, marking and one-to-one support.

Which has never happened.

And lets be totally honest the main reason that parents don't want schools to close has little to do with education and more to do with being able to work and get money.

Nope. An over stretch I reckon. Education and not only that routine and being with peers. But dull to list again.

And even if it is part of it lost income or job is just as crucial. Even if the public sector doesn’t get impacted in same way.

@MarshaBradyo

Overall I would prefer the message of caution to be reiterated. People who want to SI with their dc do in last week.

Classes are emptier and more space is possible.

Hmm again though is this fair? How would you feel as the teacher having to be there and forgo mixing with your own family if you only have a few dc turn up each day?

Maybe the schools should be allowed to poll parents and classes that will have less than say 50% attending, should be allowed to shut down? That way the teachers can at least provide everyone with remote learning which they cannot do if teaching in the classroom.

Though I am sure there is no solution that will please everyone