Secondary schools are totally stuffed, WELL-RESPECTED SCIENTISTS ADMIT

[noblegiraffe]

I don't normally get asked for an encore, more usually 'urgh, not another bloody thread', but per a request we have a follow-up to the resoundingly popular:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4078722-Secondary-schools-are-fucked-BOFFINS-ADMIT

Feedback has been received and acted upon re the title so hopefully that will temper the urge to complain.

Quick round-up of where we were at:

1. the infection rate is now highest in secondary school pupils in Y7-11, higher than uni students and sixth formers. They're not catching it at the pub...

2. The government/ONS put out misleading figures to suggest that teachers weren't at higher risk than NHS frontline workers, where actually looking at the data, they may well be. They fudged this by calling the largest group of teachers, who are at higher risk than frontline NHS staff 'teachers of an unknown type' and pretended they were irrelevant.

3. The DfE have changed the format of their attendance statistics report to remove the reference to how many hundreds of thousands of kids are currently isolating due to exposure to covid at school.

4. Boffins are cool

New info: The Guardian reports that teachers are being instructed to ignore app notifications to self-isolate by the school helpline and this might be a bad thing. They can't help themselves though, and have a lovely photo of a socially distanced classroom of lies at the top of the story.

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/nov/16/union-says-teachers-in-england-being-told-to-pause-covid-app-in-school

I don’t think the Gov will do this, if vulnerable staff were told not to come into work in the nhs- hospitals would close. I know someone will say hospitals are needed more than keeping schools open but this gives the message that nhs lives are less important.

Thank you @noblegiraffe
Really appreciate the updated title and it gave me a good chuckle too.

Off to read this guardian article now!

@HakeCod
So I should send kid in and move out?

@Pomegranatespompom

Staff who are CEV already should not be attending work. The government have been very clear that those who were shielding should not attend work.

Shall I get my children to move out, or my parents?

@HakeCod some people aren’t. I think people feel an enormous responsibility and don’t want things like theatre lists cancelled.

hi , never been on here before, Im an older dad (66) with a partner(57) who is an awesome step mum to my Girl aged 15. Her school is like everyone elses it seems ( full of Covid) a girl in her class is now off isolating as Positive, only her Bubble/ table of 4 are off , the girl who is off walks down the hill with my girl every day into the village for pick up, ok shes shouldnt have been walking with her, have you seen the kids coming out of a school , they are kids for gods sake and are not socially distancing. We both have health issues and are at risk, but I dont want to keep her off school , we are sat here waiting to catch it and well aware of the danger to us, I have tried to get a test for her , No- as she isnt showing symptoms, should I lie ? Would you keep her off ? Are we selfish ? My mums 88 and isolating and my ex has 2 little ones and is a front line worker , so if we become ill Im not sure who will look after her , fed up of this Sci-Fi movie !

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before but are the low figures from the DfE to do with the fact that self isolating students are not being marked as absent in the normal way. My DD was off yesterday waiting for the result of a test and the lady I spoke to at the school said it won't affect her attendance for the year as it is marked as something other than absence. From the experience I have with my teens school and those of friendswith kids in other schools (and I live in an area that was tier 1 before lockdown) there are lots of kids self isolating at the moment (not year groups now though just close contacts - which for some kids is a lot of people!). Teachers as well as my kids have supply teachers every day which has not been ideal for y11 dd. I can't believe that 3% figure at all as it must be much worse up north.

Actually my dds art mock exam has been moved as too many students were self isolating

@Bonkerz

My whole family is positive.

I'm sorry to read this. Take care of yourselves. I hope you feel better soon x

@WindChimeTinkle

Get real.

1. Kids need an education.
2. Kids needs to act like kids, not neurotic mumsnet hypochondriacs.
3. Covid is mild in vast majority of kids (and adults),
4. There is no miraculous way for hundreds of kids to be at school and stay socially distant.
5. Why do so many mumsnet types constantly moan about schools?

You would think staff meetings and inset days would all be remote.

To be fairs ours are now, after the first couple of weeks or so.
In fact Friday's INSET day is a 'day off' as we have some allocated time for it later in the year - 2 or 3 evenings instead of the full day, some remote and some hopefully will be in person depending on what things are like in the summer.

It seems to me that the only organisation unaware of covid running through schools are the government. Or they are telling lies.

Small respite period for teacher daughter as two teachers back in school after finishing isolation period. But I doubt it will last long.

@WindChimeTinkle

Get real.

1. Kids need an education.
2. Kids needs to act like kids, not neurotic mumsnet hypochondriacs.
3. Covid is mild in vast majority of kids (and adults),
4. There is no miraculous way for hundreds of kids to be at school and stay socially distant.
5. Why do so many mumsnet types constantly moan about schools?

Yeah - shall I get real?

Real is that I almost certainly caught Covid at school. Most likely I caught it from a symptom free child - based on my conversations with hospital doctors and Track and Trace.

Real is that I am now on my 6th week of absence from school.

Real is that I will probably need to take medication for the rest of my life as a result of covid complications.

Real is that my blood pressure spiked so high I had to have a blue light ambulance called as I was at risk of heart attack and stroke - at 47y and with no history of blood pressure issues before,

Real is that, all being well and the GP will sign me back as well enough, when I return to work next week I will be back to teaching hundreds of children every week in over crowded classrooms, with no sisal distancing and no masks.

Yes, children need an education. Yes, schools are better open. But no, right now, under Government guidelines, schools are not offering enough protection to children or staff let alone those who are CV or CEV.

Get real?
That IS my reality right now.

@Hyperbolistic

Can I ask what you are trying to achieve with these threads? Not being controversial I want to know.

Safer schools. More protection for all staff and all children, including those who are CV and CEV.

As for numbers...my own school...
Infant School
9 full classes.

Since September EVERY class has had to isolate.
11+ staff have tested positive, more have had to SI.
Several parents have tested positive.
A small number of children have now been tested and have tested positive, despite having no symptoms.

@noblegiraffe

Contact tracing and only isolating kids who sat next to the positive case isn’t enough to stop transmission. You can see it going around a class or year group, but only if you look carefully for kids being off with the symptoms kids get, or for asymptomatic cases that are accidentally caught. If you were just looking for positive cases and the main three symptoms, you’d be baffled by what was going on.

We desperately need mass testing where there are positive cases. Allowing it to spread unchecked by pretending that testing is enough to pick it up is resulting in multiple isolations for the same kids. It’s outrageous.

^THIS!!

My DD's school are a perfect example of how "close contacts" only is just not going to work in the long run particularly when the colder days arrive and I imagine more and more windows remaining closed despite guidelines (because staff/kids can't be expected to work in freezing conditions). When they first went back in September there were no cases in DD's school, then at the start of October, there was 1 confirmed case in year 9. A week later a girl in DD's year(11) was self-isolating due to being a contact and another girl who was also a contact of the same positive case (outside contact) was still in school as she didn't have symptoms. Our area had around 45 per 100,000 at the time and we were tier 1 (right up to lockdown)

Fast forward to now and we are around 120 per 100,00 and there have been several cases in school over the past 2 weeks, including last Thursday when a boy in DD's form tested positive and his contacts were told to isolate (he was in school Mon-Wed), whereas DD who is 3 seats away from him isn't a contact (because it's just about 2m away). The fact that the windows were closed due to the temperature was not factored in and considering that article that showed how transmission can spread indoors (especially with windows closed/no masks) it is concerning.

Then the next day another boy tested positive and for some reason, only some of his contacts were told to isolate. Here is the crazy part DD's best friend sits next to this boy in 4 classes, that's 4 hours she was directly next to him yet this girl was not told to isolate. Now let's assume this girl is asymptomatic, she hasn't been told to isolate and is now spreading it around her year group. Which could create even more asymptomatic kids who are all spreading it and passing it on to people who may have serious symptoms/end up in the hospital or worse. They don't know they have it and so are not being told to isolate unless they are a close contact of someone who tests positive or as it seems in DD's friend's case are not told to isolate and we have rapid transmission.

Then we lunchtime, which is not entirely separated, for years 9-11 they all have to purchase food from 1 cafeteria but using 3 separate doors and tills (that are possibly 2metres apart) years 9-11 would be approximately 900 students all going into that 1 building over the space of 40 minutes (probably less as there is a rush to get food quickly before they sell out of the "good foods"), also the windows don't open so the only ventilation comes from the 3 open doors (which are rammed with students queuing to buy lunch).

Another thing not being taken into consideration by DD's school is the after school revision club which is open to all year 11's, you just turn up and use the space as a quiet area to revise. So assume someone tests positive their contacts are sent home to isolate but if they attended revision club they may have infected other's in that room but with no seating plan it will be harder to trace close contacts as you would have to rely on the student's memory of who was sitting close to them.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before but are the low figures from the DfE to do with the fact that self isolating students are not being marked as absent in the normal way.

We use an X code.

Same code is used for other times when attendee is not required, such as when we have part time attendance for children under the ' compulsory school age' etc. It's generally not counted in absence figures.

It also seems to be similar for staff.
Those who have to SI are been asked to provide a self isolation form.
If someone tests positive then they also provide the self isolation form.
BUT if they are then unwell from their Covid they then need to send in evidence of this (sick note, positive result text, etc) and their absence is then recorded in another way. School admin mentioned something about it being the way the insurance works.

I can imagine it also makes a difference when it comes to reporting absences and reasons.

Yeah - shall I get real?

Just to add to Aragogs points. As well as the damage being done to the teaching profession through those who contract covid (which is just awful) or have to self isolate, there is now tremendous pressure on the remaining teachers.

My daughter has always slept well but for the first time in her life took a sleeping tablet as anxiety was stopping her sleeping. Quite honestly as a country we shouldn't be putting this amount of pressure on teachers.

Offensive, Hake.

How the hell are people supposed to stay away from their own CEV family members?

I can't afford to rent somewhere else to live, so have to go home to my CEV husband, as do all other teachers and healthcare staff who are exposed everyday.

Hull is calling to be allowed to close its schools (3/10 students are now self-isolating) and open to just vulnerable and KW children because the city is on the verge of grinding to a halt. So many children are at home that police, doctors and nurses and other crucial staff cannot go to work. The city is in crisis. They need to open their schools as childcare only for a short while.

[quote HakeCod]@Pomegranatespompom

Staff who are CEV already should not be attending work. The government have been very clear that those who were shielding should not attend work.[/quote]
I'm not CEV.
I'm CV. I am expected to be at work as normal with no further protection required because schools are Covid secure apparently.

Just in from my union.

Thanks noble for the new thread - you made me chuckle with the thread title which is rare these days :)

I wish they'd just let everyone wear masks, as they do from age 6 in Italy, France, Spain. Anywhere with rates around ours, really .

What is wrong with the people telling teachers NOT to isolate when ANYONE else would have to (hi Boris)? Please, if you're a teacher, just isolate and tell the school you'll only stop if they can prove you don't meet the threshold published in all the NHS and test and trace documentation. The onus of proof should be on them.

And also - telling kids they can keep coming in when they've been in close contact with a positive case? Do they want more people to get ill and die? Because it doesn't matter what the seating plan says, what matters is reality. Do they think the virus will magically not transmit if there's a seating plan? Fucks sake.

I hope people doing this get held to account. Evil bastards.

1 in 6 not attending. 16%

Yes and as we've seen on this thread, these will ONLY be those who've had VERY close contact. It probably doesn't include a good 80% of the students who've been sitting in enclosed spaces without masks or social distancing for extended periods of exposure.

@TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince

Yes, very clever wording from the union there. It is not the case however that 14% of DC are absent for COVID related reasons.

4% of DC are absent due to COVID. In other words, 96% of DC are not out of school due to coronavirus.