Secondary schools are totally stuffed, WELL-RESPECTED SCIENTISTS ADMIT

[noblegiraffe]

I don't normally get asked for an encore, more usually 'urgh, not another bloody thread', but per a request we have a follow-up to the resoundingly popular:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4078722-Secondary-schools-are-fucked-BOFFINS-ADMIT

Feedback has been received and acted upon re the title so hopefully that will temper the urge to complain.

Quick round-up of where we were at:

1. the infection rate is now highest in secondary school pupils in Y7-11, higher than uni students and sixth formers. They're not catching it at the pub...

2. The government/ONS put out misleading figures to suggest that teachers weren't at higher risk than NHS frontline workers, where actually looking at the data, they may well be. They fudged this by calling the largest group of teachers, who are at higher risk than frontline NHS staff 'teachers of an unknown type' and pretended they were irrelevant.

3. The DfE have changed the format of their attendance statistics report to remove the reference to how many hundreds of thousands of kids are currently isolating due to exposure to covid at school.

4. Boffins are cool

New info: The Guardian reports that teachers are being instructed to ignore app notifications to self-isolate by the school helpline and this might be a bad thing. They can't help themselves though, and have a lovely photo of a socially distanced classroom of lies at the top of the story.

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/nov/16/union-says-teachers-in-england-being-told-to-pause-covid-app-in-school

The fact that he has a degree isn't the same as the job requiring a degree though, is it? Maybe better to compare a newly graduated teacher's salary to the salary of someone on the graduate programme at Aldi.

Yes, BA Hons (although obviously he could do better..... whatever is better. He was also a postman for 3 years).

Did he NEED this degree to do his delivery job? Is it actually part of the jo requirements?

The public sector really ahven;t raced ahead. You need to fact check that.

The very reason the public sector are on average paid more is because they ahve higher levels of education, typically, than private sector workers and , therefore on average command higher wages.

We all also know the private sector has greater extremes of pay, altering its average.

Sunak used the average over the last six months to make his inaccurate statement to parliament , when large numbers of the private sector were on furlough.

I don't imagine many van drivers earn 22k.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/55089900?fbclid=IwAR3SvDgxnf9X6_loKaDcNQQjx0ujzXQzrb5iUp9WQ9AffMTjyLvi8awCES0

Indie Sage:
"The government's official advisers in SAGE have finally acknowledged that secondary school students can be infected, and infect one another as well as adults."

Also

Indie Sage:
"Parents who are medically vulnerable have been placed under intolerable pressure when they consider it unsafe for their children to attend school...Greater trust should be placed in parents for judging their children's best interests."

Boffins finally on the case.

Anyone seriously comparing the salary of a van driver with a (hypothetical) starting salary for a qualified teacher with a degree and a postgraduate qualification is somewhat lacking in understanding.

That and it reveals they don't actually think teaching is a skilled profession.

Honestly comparing the salary of someone who happened to do a degree because mummy could pay for it and then chose to go into low stress, low skilled work with someone who went on to do a professional post grad qualification and take on high stress, high responsibility work is nuts.

Try comparing it to a lawyer or a doctor.

I started on 19k by the way and the fte for my post is not much over 30k now. The 30k starting salary is hypothetical and nuts. It's retention that needs focussing on not constant new cannon fodder.

I am not sure delivering food to the needy and working to mid night is low stress but it certainly suits my son. I was just pointing out loads of people in SE england in full time private sector work earn a lot less than the £30k a teacher might.

@Xenia

I am not sure delivering food to the needy and working to mid night is low stress but it certainly suits my son. I was just pointing out loads of people in SE england in full time private sector work earn a lot less than the £30k a teacher might.

Yes people may well earn less or more than teachers. That's not really the point though. So one could have 4 degrees and a pHD but choose to do voluntary work earning no money.

I'm assuming in this case he does not actually NEED a degree to drive a delivery van, whereas you do NEED a degree and a post grad and/or professional qualification to become a teacher.

Therefore it should be compared with other jobs where a degree and a postgrad/profession qualification is actually part of the necessary entry requirements.

Can I just point out that teachers don’t actually ‘get’ a £30k starting salary either.

The government have said they WANT to put the starting salary up to that (though hasn’t mentioned what they’ll do with any other point on the pay scale).

Let’s wait and see, shall we.

@Xenia

I am not sure delivering food to the needy and working to mid night is low stress but it certainly suits my son. I was just pointing out loads of people in SE england in full time private sector work earn a lot less than the £30k a teacher might.

So what? The logical conclusion to this sort of thinking is that everyone should earn the same, whatever their qualifications and whatever they do. I’m sure there’s an argument to be made for this, but don’t think it would convince many.

How much do you earn, Xenia, if the private sector is so hard done by?

Frankly xenia, you are being deliberately obtuse.

I am more than sure your DS could train to be a teacher or another more lucrative graduate job. He obviously doe not want to and is content doing something lower paid in a non graduate field. The sector is irrelevant : a grad could equally be a TA and earn way less than your DS in the public sector.

We know from these threads xenia doesnt like teachers.

I guess the van driver pay would be more accurately compared to the caretaker or perhaps a TA (and be more than a TA)

I dont think she'd be up for upping the teachers starting pay to that of her starting pay for graduate lawyers like her daughter(s?)

And yes presumably he could retrain as a tecaher if he wanted!

@Flagsfiend
booseysmom I'm guessing your DH has gone up the scale or taken on a TLR role as unless he is a head there is no other way to have a £3k pay rise. Going up the scale is separate to the pay freeze. Pay scales for teachers are no secret....

No he started on £24k and will be getting £27k next year. It's nowhere near enough for what he is expected to do, plus he has quite serous issues with pupils' behaviour. He's already thinking of quitting!

Look at the data fiddling going on here:

On the first page they confirm that the age group most affected are 10-19.

Yet on the heat maps a few pages later they categorise age as 0-15 and 16-29.

Why are they splitting the worst affected age group in half and lumping them with less affected age groups (in the case of 0-15, much less affected age groups) to water down the visual impact that secondary children are having on the spread?

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/938964/Coronavirus_England_briefing_26_November.pdf

It feels dishonest that they keep categorising age differently.

It is dishonest. Deliberately so.

[quote BooseysMom]@Flagsfiend
booseysmom I'm guessing your DH has gone up the scale or taken on a TLR role as unless he is a head there is no other way to have a £3k pay rise. Going up the scale is separate to the pay freeze. Pay scales for teachers are no secret....

No he started on £24k and will be getting £27k next year. It's nowhere near enough for what he is expected to do, plus he has quite serous issues with pupils' behaviour. He's already thinking of quitting![/quote]
Do you mean, he’s gone up the pay scale from MPS1 to MPS2 plus had the pre-arranged pay rise?

Why £27k next year?

[quote BooseysMom]@Flagsfiend
booseysmom I'm guessing your DH has gone up the scale or taken on a TLR role as unless he is a head there is no other way to have a £3k pay rise. Going up the scale is separate to the pay freeze. Pay scales for teachers are no secret....

No he started on £24k and will be getting £27k next year. It's nowhere near enough for what he is expected to do, plus he has quite serous issues with pupils' behaviour. He's already thinking of quitting![/quote]
That means he has gone up the scale. He was an NQT on MPS1 and has successfully completed his NQT and moved up to MPS2 - this is independent of any pay freeze (it would still happen under the proposals). The weird bit is the following year they are proposing changing NQT pay to £30k (so MPS1 has a big increase), but unless they also change/unfreeze MPS2 and 3 you would then take a large pay cut after NQT which is ridiculous and would not help teacher retention.

@Xenia

Yes, BA Hons (although obviously he could do better..... whatever is better. He was also a postman for 3 years).

I was just saying £22k in the South East for full time work including in his case to about midnight compared with teacher on £30k when both have degrees, albeit my don has not done a PGCE shows how much the public sector have raced above the private sector these days particularly when you include the pensions in it too.

Well that’s not true. My husband is leaving the public sector and is able to refuse jobs which are treble his salary because there are even more lucrative opportunities out there. So I’m not sure where you get your facts from. His notice is remaining firmly in! Even in these times.

The more times it's quoted the more ludicrous it is. His van driving is no better than that of someone who left school at 16 with no qualifications. His degree is of zero relevance.

I agree 22k is a good wage for a job that requires no qualifications. It's about double what some teaching assistants earn and considerably more than we offer for full time non teaching heads of year.

Not sure what a nurses starting salary after their degree that they have to pay for now is but guessing they too might think fuck me I should have just been a Tesco delivery driver and saved myself 27k in fees and a whole heap of stress and responsibility and heartache of working in an underfunded public service where lack of funding very literally causes unnecessary suffering and an inability to properly do the job you paid and trained for.

You're proving the opposite of what you seem to be trying to say.

Fuck me, £22k is more than I currently earn as a (part time but still work the same hours in a week at private sector DH) teacher with a 1st class stem degree from a RG uni.
I think I'll go be a delivery driver - at least I won't be stuck in a stuffy room with 5 X 30 teenagers every day with no masks.

@WhyNotMe40

Fuck me, £22k is more than I currently earn as a (part time but still work the same hours in a week at private sector DH) teacher with a 1st class stem degree from a RG uni. I think I'll go be a delivery driver - at least I won't be stuck in a stuffy room with 5 X 30 teenagers every day with no masks.

Me too why. 22k and no work to take home sounds good. Unfortunately I don't drive