Secondary schools are totally stuffed, WELL-RESPECTED SCIENTISTS ADMIT

[noblegiraffe]

I don't normally get asked for an encore, more usually 'urgh, not another bloody thread', but per a request we have a follow-up to the resoundingly popular:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4078722-Secondary-schools-are-fucked-BOFFINS-ADMIT

Feedback has been received and acted upon re the title so hopefully that will temper the urge to complain.

Quick round-up of where we were at:

1. the infection rate is now highest in secondary school pupils in Y7-11, higher than uni students and sixth formers. They're not catching it at the pub...

2. The government/ONS put out misleading figures to suggest that teachers weren't at higher risk than NHS frontline workers, where actually looking at the data, they may well be. They fudged this by calling the largest group of teachers, who are at higher risk than frontline NHS staff 'teachers of an unknown type' and pretended they were irrelevant.

3. The DfE have changed the format of their attendance statistics report to remove the reference to how many hundreds of thousands of kids are currently isolating due to exposure to covid at school.

4. Boffins are cool

New info: The Guardian reports that teachers are being instructed to ignore app notifications to self-isolate by the school helpline and this might be a bad thing. They can't help themselves though, and have a lovely photo of a socially distanced classroom of lies at the top of the story.

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/nov/16/union-says-teachers-in-england-being-told-to-pause-covid-app-in-school

Hence the oh look at Sweden it's wonderful nonsense in lockdown was so blissfully uncritical because they didn't realise people with ecv children or family members had to either send their kids in or be threatened with having them taken away from them by the state. You cannot withdraw your children from school and home education is illegal which left clinically vulnerable families in horrible positions.

fuck they are fucking fucked.

two days in school to 16 days out of school.

both children now out self isolating.

Sorry to hear that Susan

Meanwhile in Germany an official that declared schools safe is faced with a massive outbreak in a school with nearly a hundred staff and students testing positive out of 550 tested.

He had declared that the virus doesn’t spread in schools and that cases in schools didn’t lead to other infections. He then had to admit that they didn’t actually know this as no one was being tested.

“Last week, Prof. Lothar Wieler, President of the Robert Koch Institute, declared: “We are seeing more and more outbreaks in schools.” The infection process is carried into and out of schools. Wieler: "We have known for a long time that children can of course also be infected." Yesterday the head of the federal authority once again appealed to the federal states to follow the recommendations of the RKI for school operations - the mask requirement in lessons and smaller learning groups provide. So far, no federal state has followed the recommendations.”

Gosh. I thought Germany had a better handle on things.
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@Aragog

Don’t be so ridiculous! Who’s to say if a teacher dies from Covid they caught it from being in a school setting! 🙄

By going through my T&T, which I did with my hospital consultant and my GP since, I can almost certainly point to my contact being school, probably a symptom free child.

I hadn't been anywhere else to pick it up.
Only other person I'd been in close contact with was Dh who hasn't had Covid, hasn't tested positive, has t had any symptoms.

And fwiw I was speaking to a hospital consultant as I was in hospital due to complications with Covid. Blue light ambulance was called due to the risk to my health at the time.

And yes - if the worse had happened the. It would have been due to a school transmission. The place I have to go to daily, whilst being clinically vulnerable, with very limited protection. I don't even get to socially distance. I can open some windows though, eh?!

Please ignore, Aragog. It is absolutely obvious where you caught it from. I have read your posts before and know how unwell you were. You certainly don't need people posting rubbish like that!

I had the same, I look after positive patients in work but apparently I can't have caught it there because I have PPE (a paper mask haha). Even though my DC had been at home for 2 weeks and DH had been home for over a week. No one had been in our house and I hadn't been anywhere but work.

We know where we got it, don't be worrying what others say. For some reason lots of people don't want to accept that some of us have higher risk jobs.

I really hope you are on the mend, and that you don't rush back to work until fully recovered

Interesting, sounds like Germany has their own Us4Them problem.

PrivateD00r

Thank you and sorry you have had to deal with this - the Covid AND the grief afterwards.

Because of posts on Mumsnet I am adamant that I will NOT deny where I caught Covid. Its made me even more determined to make it known.

It amazes me how keen people are to find any other reason bar the most obvious. I guess it makes them feel happier, and possibly even safer, to now acknowledge the reality. But the lengths some people will go to if almost comical these days!

I really hope you are on the mend, and that you don't rush back to work until fully recovered

I am returning to work on Monday after 6 weeks off, after the GP agreed to let me give it a try. We won't know how my blood pressure and heart rate will cope once I start doing more stuff. But my HT is lovely and has agreed to taking it slowly and see how it goes. I have less than 50% of my normal timetable in the coming week (hopefully that won't change!)

My role has been changed hopefully too, so I won't be working across school in all classes and all year groups, but instead will be limited to the one year group (so 90 children instead of 270) and I have permission to wear a mask in school at any time, including in classrooms when teaching. Strangely enough they believe the young children (infant school) will manage quite happily seeing me wearing one.

They know that if I have any spikes or release I could end up off again longer so we don't want to risk that.

Hope you are well x

Because of posts on Mumsnet I am adamant that I will NOT deny where I caught Covid. Its made me even more determined to make it known.

It's called "ignorance is bliss."
What I have learned through all of this, is that schools, SLT and some parents have their own agenda.
Ours is simple: educate our students, in as safe an environment as possible for each and every one of use in an educational setting.
Hope you feel better soon @Aragog

@Aragog
I am glad you are on the mend and I hope that your return to work is straightforward. I hope you do keep posting about your experience because I am sick to death of the insistence by some that primary aged children simply cannot spread this virus.
I work in a primary school. Since september we have had the equivalent of over 1 and a half year groups self isolating due to having symptoms. That doesn't include the entire year group which is currently out because one of the pupils has tested positive. And yet, woth all that absence, our attendance figures are still above 97% because covid related absence is not counted as an absence.
We have also had 30 members of staff isolating at various times. We are having real difficulty finding supply staff to cover for teacher absence. We are on our knees. None of us want to close. But unless something changes, and soon, the sheer lack of available staff could force it. I know this thread is mainly about secondary schools , so I apologise for the hijack, but I think it's important that people realise that all schools are experiencing difficulties.

And yet, woth all that absence, our attendance figures are still above 97% because covid related absence is not counted as an absence.

I think we are using the X code - so again, not counted for attendance purposes.

I know this thread is mainly about secondary schools , so I apologise for the hijack

No worries, I know primary teachers are in the worrying position of not being able to social distance at all from their classes (at least secondary teachers can a bit and have masks for the mosh pit corridors), and also have the same crap of parents sending in kids with symptoms or with positive family members and complaining about every possible covid measure. You're less affected, but that doesn't mean unaffected. Solidarity!

I had to give my threads a secondary focus because that's where I teach and where there's clear data is of big issues, and also to stop the 'parents need to work' and '5 year olds can't wear masks' and 'class bubbles' arguments that are just less relevant to discussion about secondary but keep coming up on general schools threads.

@Aragog yes all absences for isolating and positive tests is coded X. If a parent chooses to keep a child out (eg when we've isolated half a year group and parents from the other half isolate theirs as well) when they haven't been told to, it's O (unauthorised)

If a parent chooses to keep a child out (eg when we've isolated half a year group and parents from the other half isolate theirs as well) when they haven't been told to, it's O (unauthorised)

Wow - just - wow. Whenever I think I'm beyond being shocked.

So parents who isolate their kids (perhaps because they KNOW they've been in close contact despite the seating plan - trying to do the right thing) are penalised by getting unauthorised absences (which unless anyone isn't aware can result in a fine).

That's just..... disgusting.

It's as if they WANT kids to spread it, really.

@IloveJKRowling

It's as if they WANT kids to spread it, really.

Well, let's look at the evidence...

1. Schools will stay fully open
2. No masks allowed in classrooms where teachers and pupils spend the most time
3. Pupils are not allowed to be tested for the symptoms that kids are most likely to get.
4. Teachers (who in secondary will teach all bubbles without masks) are not to self isolate if there is a case in a class they have taught.
5. Fudging any data that may show teachers getting ill at a higher rate than the general population
6. Fudging data that may show school pupils having a higher infection rate than the general population
7. Not permitting / trying / mass testing in schools where there have been cases in case they find out how bad the spread is
8. Actually sending letter to parents to tell them to stop getting kids tested.

I'm sure I've missed something

Whynot you missed the latest 'fine parents who try and keep their kids off when in contact with a known positive case'

(Emits hollow sarcastic laugh of despair).

Yes, when you lay it out like that, it's clear. I'm pretty sure Anthony Costello (a former director of WHO, member of Indie Sage) said something during an Indie Sage meeting about the way they've sent schools back is what you'd do if you wanted to aim for herd immunity (which we all know doesn't actually exist - it's like they're aiming for a unicorn strategy).

I genuinely don't understand why the media isn't all over this.
And I really reeally hope that Johnson, Gavlar, and the others, are held personally responsible and made to pay for the consequences of their policy decisions.

10. Launch a propaganda campaign to convince parents that schools are safe using data from schools in lockdown, which every news outlet dutifully publicises.

11. Hide Gavin Williamson in a cupboard so that no journalist can accidentally ask him how his aim to reopen schools safely is going.

12. Announce that one of the school safety measures will be children in bubbles which will burst when there are cases. Stop this midway through September and start sending home as few kids as possible. Remove the schools remit from PHE control and put DfE in charge to enforce this.

@noblegiraffe

10. Launch a propaganda campaign to convince parents that schools are safe using data from schools in lockdown, which every news outlet dutifully publicises.

11. Hide Gavin Williamson in a cupboard so that no journalist can accidentally ask him how his aim to reopen schools safely is going.

12. Announce that one of the school safety measures will be children in bubbles which will burst when there are cases. Stop this midway through September and start sending home as few kids as possible. Remove the schools remit from PHE control and put DfE in charge to enforce this.

Good points.

@noblegiraffe
Thank you. I am in fact a TA, which means I have no opportunity to even be a metre apart from the children I support. I also work throughout the school and it is only sheer luck that I haven't been in close contact with any of our positive children - had I not been covering for other members of staff who were si, I would have had two 14 day isolations by now. I am CV, so this is a worrying time. And yes, like you, we have had parents sending children in who have clearly got symptoms and who have then refused to collect their children from school.
It's a shame that so many people are swallowing the misinformation that is being peddled about this.
I also have some insight into secondary schools locally, as my DC teaches in one. They have had to go to part time schooling for most of their year groups, due to the number of staff having to si. It's not a good picture at all.

Well, let's look at the evidence...

1. Schools will stay fully open
2. No masks allowed in classrooms where teachers and pupils spend the most time
3. Pupils are not allowed to be tested for the symptoms that kids are most likely to get.
4. Teachers (who in secondary will teach all bubbles without masks) are not to self isolate if there is a case in a class they have taught.
5. Fudging any data that may show teachers getting ill at a higher rate than the general population
6. Fudging data that may show school pupils having a higher infection rate than the general population
7. Not permitting / trying / mass testing in schools where there have been cases in case they find out how bad the spread is
8. Actually sending letter to parents to tell them to stop getting kids tested.

9 'fine parents who try and keep their kids off when in contact with a known positive case'. Although disclaimer: I've only seen this claimed on here. Not seen any corroborating evidence. Yet

10. Launch a propaganda campaign to convince parents that schools are safe using data from schools in lockdown, which every news outlet dutifully publicises.

11. Hide Gavin Williamson in a cupboard so that no journalist can accidentally ask him how his aim to reopen schools safely is going.

12. Announce that one of the school safety measures will be children in bubbles which will burst when there are cases. Stop this midway through September and start sending home as few kids as possible. Remove the schools remit from PHE control and put DfE in charge to enforce this.

How about coming up with a tiered system for schools at the start of the academic year involving things like "masks everywhere" and "rotas" and then promptly forgetting about it / never mentioning it again / telling schools not to use it?

inews.co.uk/news/schools-reopening-uk-coronavirus-rota-system-local-lockdown-second-wave-gavin-williamson-613414

Well, let's look at the evidence...

1. Schools will stay fully open
2. No masks allowed in classrooms where teachers and pupils spend the most time
3. Pupils are not allowed to be tested for the symptoms that kids are most likely to get.
4. Teachers (who in secondary will teach all bubbles without masks) are not to self isolate if there is a case in a class they have taught.
5. Fudging any data that may show teachers getting ill at a higher rate than the general population
6. Fudging data that may show school pupils having a higher infection rate than the general population
7. Not permitting / trying / mass testing in schools where there have been cases in case they find out how bad the spread is
8. Actually sending letter to parents to tell them to stop getting kids tested.

9 'fine parents who try and keep their kids off when in contact with a known positive case'. Although disclaimer: I've only seen this claimed on here. Not seen any corroborating evidence. Yet

10. Launch a propaganda campaign to convince parents that schools are safe using data from schools in lockdown, which every news outlet dutifully publicises.

11. Hide Gavin Williamson in a cupboard so that no journalist can accidentally ask him how his aim to reopen schools safely is going.

12. Announce that one of the school safety measures will be children in bubbles which will burst when there are cases. Stop this midway through September and start sending home as few kids as possible. Remove the schools remit from PHE control and put DfE in charge to enforce this.

13. Produce a Tiered system of responses to infection levels (rotas, masks, closures) to reassure parents, and shut the unions up. Then never mention them again and in fact state that they are not to be used.

Oh yes, forgot about the tiers.

13. When Hull begs for rotas due to imminent collapse of system, send a letter to all local authorities re-iterating NO ROTAS

Arses, that’s 14