Secondary schools are totally stuffed, WELL-RESPECTED SCIENTISTS ADMIT

[noblegiraffe]

I don't normally get asked for an encore, more usually 'urgh, not another bloody thread', but per a request we have a follow-up to the resoundingly popular:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4078722-Secondary-schools-are-fucked-BOFFINS-ADMIT

Feedback has been received and acted upon re the title so hopefully that will temper the urge to complain.

Quick round-up of where we were at:

1. the infection rate is now highest in secondary school pupils in Y7-11, higher than uni students and sixth formers. They're not catching it at the pub...

2. The government/ONS put out misleading figures to suggest that teachers weren't at higher risk than NHS frontline workers, where actually looking at the data, they may well be. They fudged this by calling the largest group of teachers, who are at higher risk than frontline NHS staff 'teachers of an unknown type' and pretended they were irrelevant.

3. The DfE have changed the format of their attendance statistics report to remove the reference to how many hundreds of thousands of kids are currently isolating due to exposure to covid at school.

4. Boffins are cool

New info: The Guardian reports that teachers are being instructed to ignore app notifications to self-isolate by the school helpline and this might be a bad thing. They can't help themselves though, and have a lovely photo of a socially distanced classroom of lies at the top of the story.

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/nov/16/union-says-teachers-in-england-being-told-to-pause-covid-app-in-school

Minnie theMinx

noblegiraffe

I am so unbelievably pro testing in schools now. I can see the immediate impact it would have taking out the kids who actually have covid instead of them wandering around school silently spreading.

How often?

At the very least, I would want every possible contact of every positive case tested (so the full class group in every subject, plus every member of staff). And then the contacts of any further positives identified.

I would also want anyone who comes into unavoidable very close contact with anyone to have regular tests (e.g. those staff who are involved in intimate care, or who work with children who cannot keep distance on a 1:1 basis for extended periods), and anyone who is ECV who has had to come into schools as a pupil or member of staff.

TheSun you’re in private! In state, even if there’s a need for something, we can’t afford it.

@noblegiraffe

TheSun you’re in private! In state, even if there’s a need for something, we can’t afford it.

Private is not all it's cracked up to be on many levels, but the funding sure is great, thanks to us parents. :( or :) don't really know. I'm on the fence atm wrt private/state. But the point is fair: private have more options wrt to what they can pay for.

@noblegiraffe

I’d agree with a 2 week circuit breaker, Sansa, for schools that are riddled with it. I don’t think it could be argued for the ‘my school is fine we have no cases’ crowd.

But testing to see if they are actually fine would be needed.

I think testing at the start (to make sure no schools that needed to shut were missed) and testing at the end would be vital, and then regular mass testing too.

I think the spit tests could work, even if they are only 70% accurate- if there are lots of cases in school they will pick up at least some.

The thing with the "my school is fine" crowd is there are schools near me that have gone from being fine two weeks ago to not fine (and in a few cases closed) this week. So, I think at the very least mass testing of schools would be needed to see if any could stay open.

It’s just endemic in some schools. I teach in primary and we have only had 1 case, which was in the half term so no one actually sent home. Who knows how many asymptomatic children there have been though, as I know of parents testing positive.

However my DH teaches at a secondary school under 5 miles away. Their first case was in early October. Since then they have had 15 staff test positive and over 40 students. The whole school was closed for a while and that did help, but now cases are increasing again. Some Year 11 students are on their third isolation. To add to the anecdata, we both teach in a deprived London borough.

Oh and we live with our CEV toddler. He isn’t allowed to go to nursery at the moment to keep him safe (I’ve had medical advice) but DH can go to a school with endemic Covid every day. HR told me that I should ‘distance’ from him within the home as much as possible. He is three...

The thing with the "my school is fine" crowd is there are schools near me that have gone from being fine two weeks ago to not fine (and in a few cases closed) this week.

Yep, same here. Most dramatic went from no closures and no positive cases to nearly 300 pupils (and a significant number of staff) over the course of last weekend.

explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/find-statistics/attendance-in-education-and-early-years-settings-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-outbreak

Absence statistics for last Thursday. With a worrying trend of most of the absence stats doubling compared with a week previously, it will be really interesting to see the ones for Thursday 19th.

HR told me that I should ‘distance’ from him within the home as much as possible. He is three...

What the?

I am getting a bit sick of politicians and others who have clearly never, ever dealt with toddlers and small children saying parents should 'distance' from them (in the case of politicians because they're too busy lining their mates pockets with public money rather than making schools safer).

These people really are just dangerously stupid. This is for them:

PARENTS CANNOT DISTANCE FROM SMALL CHILDREN, IT IS NOT SAFE TO DO SO

We used to have a nurse but she was requisitioned by the NHS in March. We can't afford to replace her.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/high-school-tells-pupils-work-19294085

Schools starting to make the decision to close themselves.

Thank you for your threads @noblegiraffe
I appreciate and admire your tenacity.
I lurk around, and post rarely, but they are much appreciated.

Of course they should test frequently in schools, but they won't do that, because the results would tell them what we all know, and they want to keep the truth hidden.

I teach High School, and we have windows that don't open, 30 kids in small classrooms - many of whom wear their masks in corridors on their chins/foreheads...anywhere but where they should.

We are (SLT are) rubbish at isolating outbreaks. Last week they sent home one twin (both in same class) because they were sitting next to positive case, and kept other twin (who sat further away) in school. Luckily parents saw the madness of this, and kept second twin off to isolate also.
Our SLT spends hours pouring over timetables, zooming in on the magical zone in order to keep as many kids in school as possible, whilst ignoring the mixing at lunchtimes/break/end of day buses.
We regularly get passive aggressive emails telling us that we must "stay safe" but frequently work with no hot water, limited cleaning, and
if we are in a class with a positive, we are told we don't need to isolate, and we'll be fine.

I feel that I'm holding my breath every day I walk into the place, and can only breathe properly at the end of the day. We are not safe, the kids aren't safe.

Emperors New Clothes.
Every day.

@Appuskidu

Is it mandatory for all schools to have a trained nurse onsite all the time? Or more based on no of pupils?

Or not at all!

We have a school nurse-she is the named school nurse every school and pre school in our large town and surrounding area. She works three days a week and we generally ‘get’ her for one morning a term. She’s been off sick since the start of the year and has not been replaced.

Perhaps other areas have more luck, but I doubt any schools outside of the private sector have an on-site nurse.

We have a school nurse, and we're a state secondary school. I don't know how we fund it, but she's in school 3 days a week, is incredibly busy, and then teaches health and social care on one of her non-nursing days. It's fantastic to have her, and I think we're incredibly lucky. We may have cut corners with other things in order to fund our nurse, and she's worth every penny.

I'd also welcome blended learning for all at secondary school. In fact, I'd quite like year 6 dd to be on blended learning too, but I know that's more difficult due to childcare being required for a lot of families.

Mass testing would be a fantastic idea too. We've got 3 cases in one yeargroup, but still only sending close contacts home (as advised) so testing that yeargroup to see who else is asymptomatically positive so they can isolate too. That would significantly reduce the spread, as positive cases would be taken out of circulation ASAP.

Well cherry 🍒, it just seems odd...

Oh yes don't worry.. Your school is on fire but they all are... Don't believe concerned.. It's not just your setting...

Oh wait, hold on, it's not transmitting in schools...

@Mominatrix

I am confused Chloe - is being in school better than being out of school? I thought this thread was principally for people who were upset that schools were still open?

Just in case it wasn’t clear, no. This thread is not for people who are upset at schools being open. The fact you thought it was, explains your posts though. This thread is for people who want to make schools safer, so that they can stay open. We can only do that if the government start being honest regarding the data/current situation.

Sophie it's wicked isn't it. Utterly wicked. I'm fed up with the lack of communication to dp to assist in class eg get your dc to wear layers.
It's like being the waitress caught between a customer who says the steak is too rare and the chef who is angry and won't cook it further because he thinks it's OK. What does the waitress do?..

@NullcovoidNovember

Sophie it's wicked isn't it. Utterly wicked. I'm fed up with the lack of communication to dp to assist in class eg get your dc to wear layers. It's like being the waitress caught between a customer who says the steak is too rare and the chef who is angry and won't cook it further because he thinks it's OK. What does the waitress do?..

Yep. It is indeed wicked. We're all struggling. And made to feel guilty, just for trying to keep the kids and ourselves safe.

I've sent my mp the link to several of these threads. I just don't think they are thinking about it.

@noblegiraffe

Mini if there is a positive case in a bubble then I would like the whole bubble tested. Sending home the kid that sat next to them isn’t working.

If there are more cases than that one kid, then the bubble sent home to isolate. If not then any classes they are in sent home (whole class) and the rest of the bubble tested again a week later to double check.

That’s my preliminary suggestion. It would make a huge difference.

Agreed,

It is suspected that there are very many asymptomatic cases, and that lots of children do not meet the three symptom threshold for testing, but yes this makes sense.

Mass testing would pick up asymptomatic cases too but close lots of year groups and whole schools tomorrow. But if that needs to happen then it should.

Testing is not going to keep schools open. It isn't going to keep kids in school. At this present point it will prove that schools are not safe and need to be closed. Had testing been mandatory, freely available, easily assessable and indicated for a wider range of symptoms in children and introduced in Sept it would have been fandabbiedozzie. Parents also need to be supported financially if they need to take time out to care for isolating DC.

Parents also need to be supported financially if they need to take time out to care for isolating DC.

This. The fear of financial consequences are causing parents to avoid testing their children at all costs.

The thing is with testing is it picks up cases, so they can't spread it. But the other thing about testing is that we are testing precisely because we have come into contact with others in circumstances where we are at risk. The real risk of course is in coming into contact with others! So better than testing is to avoid all people
and where this can't be maintained....
Ventilation, small groups, the same group of people not multiple contacts, SD, masks and more ventilation because its airborne. Put the anti-bac away and stop worrying about door handles, just open the doors, its a virus not a bacteria. The only thing I took away from Hands, face, space was space. I can't imagine how difficult it would be for DC to wear face masks all day and how difficult many teachers would find it too.

I think the risks can be better managed but there is no political will. I'm disgusted that this government think the lives of teachers are particularly expendable. A government that apparently now think education is the be all and end all of a civilised society despite cutting some £7billion in spending on education, now want to force all children into school. Why? it just smacks of "lets make teachers sick, hahahaha" because who in their right mind would think it a good idea to start an enquiry into home education in the middle of a pandemic? A tory of course.

the same group of people not multiple contacts

This is much much harder to do than masks. DD is the only person doing her combination of subjects. Does she not have specialist teachers? Or does her Maths class have to sit through her MFL lessons? Or does she form a group of 1, drifting around the school on her own?

Mini I agree, but that message is buried re space and opening doors.

The Manchester school article said his staff made 1000 visits during lock down to students and has given out 435 lap tops and got WiFi as well for students who don't have it... So it is possible...

I notice most of the, schools are fine brigade, no evidence, blah blah. Of recent weeks have gone mainly quiet. I wonder if it’s because they saw the writing on the wall and were angry at the messenger.

Jesus Fuck, just watched the local news. I live in, what was, a tier 1 area just over a week ago, with amongst the lowest numbers in the country. Now, as of the week ending Nov 13th, we’ve got the two areas either side of where I live at number three in the country - 589/100k and the other in the top twenty with 520/100k.

The Medway Maritime Hospital has declared a critical incident as it is now ‘full’, with more than 100 COVID patients, whilst trying to carry out normal procedures and operations.

And, straight from the horses mouth, the Director of Public Health, Kent county council - Andrew Scott Clark - has just appeared on South East Today and stated “We’ve seen it’s the younger generation get it first, then the working age, then the elderly”

Yesterday two schools in Thanet, one technical college, one grammar closed completely for a ‘firebreak’ of 14 days because of the numbers of positive cases and subsequent self isolators being completely out of control.

Our affiliated school’s Head did an article in the local paper this week, he’s spent GBP20,000.00 out of a budget that’s already at breaking point, trying to make his school as safe as possible. It’s a Sisyphean task. He’d just like some funding. He doesn’t want to send children home, he understands the benefit of education and being in school. He’s fighting a losing battle with the numbers increasing like this.

Meanwhile, I’m at home, clinically vulnerable, with an extremely clinically vulnerable husband, sending our two DDs to school every day. We have to. They’re in the sixth form and they can’t afford to miss any more schooling and f2f in particular, because despite everything, A Levels are definitely going ahead, apparently. They’re sensible, they’ve not broken a single rule since March. None of us have. Our school is fabulous, they’re doing their best. We’ve had two periods of self isolation already since September. I got them tested at a drive through, I had to, I had to know if we had to arrange for my husband to move out. My youngest, despite being, I thought, hard as nails, turns out has a phobia of anything going so far up her nose it ‘meets resistance’, but I had to do it to her, it was awful. My eldest, meanwhile, was distraught that she may have inadvertently brought something home that put her Father’s life at risk. I don’t think not going to school is the biggest risk to her mental health at this point tbh.

But yeah, schools? Totally safe.

cantkeepawayforever Is your DD in yr10 or 11? Mine is in Yr11. Difficult. Are they going to see sense and base GCSE results on teacher assessment? I think they should now. They missed so much school that DS is now just cramming for mocks and exams. They have given no advice regarding career choices or further education. They simply haven't the time. If GCSEs were teacher assessed then it would be possible to fully rework secondary school time tables at least up until Easter. If they were part time with online subject content and part time small classes in school for a few months at least it would be safer. But I'm sure there are other equally workable solutions other than my suggestion.