Secondary schools are totally stuffed, WELL-RESPECTED SCIENTISTS ADMIT

[noblegiraffe]

I don't normally get asked for an encore, more usually 'urgh, not another bloody thread', but per a request we have a follow-up to the resoundingly popular:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4078722-Secondary-schools-are-fucked-BOFFINS-ADMIT

Feedback has been received and acted upon re the title so hopefully that will temper the urge to complain.

Quick round-up of where we were at:

1. the infection rate is now highest in secondary school pupils in Y7-11, higher than uni students and sixth formers. They're not catching it at the pub...

2. The government/ONS put out misleading figures to suggest that teachers weren't at higher risk than NHS frontline workers, where actually looking at the data, they may well be. They fudged this by calling the largest group of teachers, who are at higher risk than frontline NHS staff 'teachers of an unknown type' and pretended they were irrelevant.

3. The DfE have changed the format of their attendance statistics report to remove the reference to how many hundreds of thousands of kids are currently isolating due to exposure to covid at school.

4. Boffins are cool

New info: The Guardian reports that teachers are being instructed to ignore app notifications to self-isolate by the school helpline and this might be a bad thing. They can't help themselves though, and have a lovely photo of a socially distanced classroom of lies at the top of the story.

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/nov/16/union-says-teachers-in-england-being-told-to-pause-covid-app-in-school

TBF I have said a few times I think schools need to shut for 2 weeks (with students isolating) as a circuit breaker. I think the virus is too endemic in too many schools now for anything else to work.

But I think I'm the only one saying that.

I'd like to find a way around it for vulnerable students, but I'm not sure if that would be possible.

My logic is 1 x 2 week closure is better than 3 periods of self isolation.

It would also hopefully help with staffing issues.

Vulnerable children are being let down in two ways now. I would like to know whether schools in more deprived areas have higher incidents of whole school closure, bubbles isolating, and what their attendance levels are compared to areas of less deprivation. There is no level playing ground and this is going to create huge inequality in outcome. Also being let down because they can not be monitored in school and welfare checks are not being made.

I don't think schools will remain open. Parents are discussing taking children out early (for all the wrong reasons mostly), this can be interpreted by the government to mean there will be little resistance to school closures. I'd like to know what will be done to level the playing field so that these children are not disadvantaged with their exams. We can not blame teachers or individual schools.

When I was looking at the situation before lockdown I anticipated schools would close second week of Dec, based partly on the data and graphs from one of Nobel's threads. But I now agree with you Nobel, schools won't limp on until mid Dec, and as before the government will act to close schools but only on the back of severe staff shortages and parents taking DC out. They simply will not take proactive decisions and take responsibility. No leadership whatsoever.

TESTING!

I am so unbelievably pro testing in schools now. I can see the immediate impact it would have taking out the kids who actually have covid instead of them wandering around school silently spreading.

I’m SLT in a large secondary in the south. Since Friday evening we’ve had a steady stream of positive results come in. We’ve spent most waking hours analysing seating plans, making contact sheets and phoning staff and parents to inform of isolation. We’ve barely slept or seen our families and I’m now teaching pretty crap lessons to my own classes.
PHE have told our HT that this upsurge in cases in schools is common in our region.

Kids in deprived areas are suffering more damage to their education. But I don’t hear anyone clamouring to help them this time. Strange that

Yes. Telling.

As a counterpoint, my friend's child in one of the northern US states is doing blended learning (halftime), socially distanced with masks (he's 5, happily wears a mask all day), with online learning the days he's not in (given a state funded laptop with pre-loaded programs for learning). He hasn't had to isolate once and although different is receiving a full-time state school education that is consistent.

Every time I hear about it I just think how unfair it is that children in this country don't even get the protection to their education (and their health and health of their loved ones) that masks would provide.

I’d agree with a 2 week circuit breaker, Sansa, for schools that are riddled with it. I don’t think it could be argued for the ‘my school is fine we have no cases’ crowd.

But testing to see if they are actually fine would be needed.

Sorry that last para wasn't clear, I meant that I didn't think schools would stay open until the beginning of the 2nd week, but if they did they would close then because parents were taking DC out, and severe staff shortages, this way the government would not be forced to take proactive action.

We were told today that any education staff will be entitled to an antibodies test. I wonder how transparently the data from these will be presented ?

I've had Covid so will do a test and see if I have antibodies; it would be very interesting to see if others from my school who have had no symptoms have them too.

@noblegiraffe

TESTING!

I am so unbelievably pro testing in schools now. I can see the immediate impact it would have taking out the kids who actually have covid instead of them wandering around school silently spreading.

How often?

@SansaSnark

TBF I have said a few times I think schools need to shut for 2 weeks (with students isolating) as a circuit breaker. I think the virus is too endemic in too many schools now for anything else to work.

But I think I'm the only one saying that.

I'd like to find a way around it for vulnerable students, but I'm not sure if that would be possible.

My logic is 1 x 2 week closure is better than 3 periods of self isolation.

It would also hopefully help with staffing issues.

I agree but judging from other threads of how many actual abide by the rules of self isolation or lockdown it may help a little but would need proper enforcement to work properly.

PHE have told our HT that this upsurge in cases in schools is common in our region.

^^ which region are you? What else did PHE say or just that ....yes there is a surge?

"As a counterpoint, my friend's child in one of the northern US states is doing blended learning (halftime), socially distanced with masks (he's 5, happily wears a mask all day), with online learning the days he's not in (given a state funded laptop with pre-loaded programs for learning). He hasn't had to isolate once and although different is receiving a full-time state school education that is consistent. "

its the perfect compromise, its easier to keep going , knowing you're safe at home for a few days, thins out student population and helps to keep the true integrity of bubbles.

Little life rafts people can mentally cling too. Yes and masks.

We need to know who is behind this mask thing!

I agree but judging from other threads of how many actual abide by the rules of self isolation or lock down it may help a little but would need proper enforcement to work properly.

^^ the wording from school was not clear or firm enough. we even had teacher at dd school saying " so whose been out for fresh air then? Its really important" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@noblegiraffe

TESTING!

I am so unbelievably pro testing in schools now. I can see the immediate impact it would have taking out the kids who actually have covid instead of them wandering around school silently spreading.

Do you remember a spit in a tube idea? I think it was called spooled testing... has anyone heard/read anything more than it was done somewhere in the US.... ? I'm just trying to think through how it would work. It would depend on quicktest (30 mins) or pcr (24 hr) Quicktest

1. go in monday 30 mins early, spit in a bowl (yuk)
2. go to heated outdoor area together, no staff close contact
3. if yes: everyone back in queue and get proper pcr test on site then go home and isolate until further notice

Needed:

• testing equipment, as many as there are classes. Have no idea how much they cost.
• person to administer spitting. We are talking teens.... this could be the form tutor with ppe.

PCR

1. go in monday 30 mins early, spit in a bowl (yuk)
2. go into classroom and get teaching via cctv/online; have lunch delivered to them (eg like in hospitals) for full day
3. if yes: everyone to get proper pcr test ...

not going to go further, not viable....

but the first one could be...
Is it mandatory for all schools to have a trained nurse onsite all the time? Or more based on no of pupils?

Mini if there is a positive case in a bubble then I would like the whole bubble tested. Sending home the kid that sat next to them isn’t working.

If there are more cases than that one kid, then the bubble sent home to isolate. If not then any classes they are in sent home (whole class) and the rest of the bubble tested again a week later to double check.

That’s my preliminary suggestion. It would make a huge difference.

Is it mandatory for all schools to have a trained nurse onsite all the time?

God no, the funding for that went years ago.

Does anyone know that on the drive through or walk in test sites the ppl doing the swabing are trained professionals or trained dumpster divers?

@noblegiraffe

Is it mandatory for all schools to have a trained nurse onsite all the time?

God no, the funding for that went years ago.

We have one and last year when I had a chat with her at a social event I asked did she actually have things to do most days and she laughed real hard :) She has a queue most days.... I know its 1800 boys from 6-18, but that shows that there would be a need maybe?

[quote HakeCod]@ChloeDecker

That is the latest figure provided by the DFE for COVID absences.

The unions keep propagating the overall attendance rate, which has nothing to do with the issue at hand. DC off with the cold or a stomach bug have nothing to do with COVID.

There are always DC absent from school, particularly at this tile of year when seasonal viruses are circulating.[/quote]
@HakeCod,

Updated figures on pupil absence:

64% of secondary schools had one or more pupils self isolating duie to contact with a positive Covid case in school

Secondary school attendance was 83% (which sounds 'OK', until you realise that if a child has attendance of 90% they're classed as a 'persistent absentee', so for schools as a whole to have attendance 7% below this is extraordinarily low).

Between 18% and 20% of schools said they had 30 or more pupils self-isolating due to potential contact with a case of Covid-19 inside the school. This is well over double what it was two weeks earlier.

Up to 615,000 children were absent from school for covid-related reasons on a single day last week. That 'snapshot' ignores the cumulative effect of this kind of level, and increase, of daily absences. Yes, some will be isolating for their 1st time. others for their 3rd or 4th.

Is it mandatory for all schools to have a trained nurse onsite all the time? Or more based on no of pupils?

Or not at all!

We have a school nurse-she is the named school nurse every school and pre school in our large town and surrounding area. She works three days a week and we generally ‘get’ her for one morning a term. She’s been off sick since the start of the year and has not been replaced.

Perhaps other areas have more luck, but I doubt any schools outside of the private sector have an on-site nurse.

“Schools face an "ongoing and considerable challenge" in keeping open during the Covid pandemic, a top Department for Education official has admitted.”

But no suggestions as what to do about it.

The DfE are fucking useless.

And as is traditional on these threads
Where. The fuck. Is Gavin Williamson?

www.tes.com/news/considerable-challenge-keeping-schools-open-says-dfe

@NullcovoidNovember why the face?

They were reassuring our HT who was very concerned about the back to back cases that it wasn’t unusual. They validated our approach and said mass year/half year sending home shouldn’t happen.

Could you pls not summon the idiot? If we are unlucky he'll reappear with some shitty line about something totally irrelevant to schools and finally tell everyone how schools are safe.

They aren’t really testing enough people at the moment. Our two recent cases were asymptomatic and only picked up through study tests.

The third case was a member of staff and symptomatic. The member of staff is tenuously linked to both kids. I reckon there are loads of asymptomatic cases in our school. But we aren’t testing for them.

just realized i renamed pooled to spooled testing.

If the things the kids are saying to me about their friends who are isolating are even half true, the whole thing is a massive waste of time. We've got kids having sleepovers, visiting relatives, providing homecare for elderly relatives and even going to supermarkets. Honestly I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Mental health of teaching staff is on the floor. We don't know whether we are coming or going - most of us are past caring whether we get it or not as it all seems so inevitable.