Secondary schools are fucked, BOFFINS ADMIT

[noblegiraffe]

Latest ONS random sampling data shows that secondary school children in Y7-11 are now the age group with the highest infection rate in England, overtaking sixth form and university students.

In Wales "Schoolchildren are more likely to catch and spread coronavirus than previously thought, experts have warned... It was also discovered that while children were far more likely to be asymptomatic and not become seriously unwell, they were more likely to be the first positive case in any household."

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/health/schoolchildren-more-likely-catch-spread-19275959?fbclid=IwAR0kpoikv0D_nkwHx3lVyQX_cyDj6Ycy1d6gE3aRx6syxUKzFQsYzMDSqPw

English boffins are a bit slower on the uptake though
"SAGE’s report found that prevalence of Covid-19 in school-age children had “risen significantly” in the first wave, and that the rise in prevalence was “first visible around the time that schools reopened”.

However, it said that while this “may be indicative of a potential role for school opening, causation, including the extent to which transmission is occurring in schools, is unproven and difficult to establish”.

schoolsweek.co.uk/child-infection-rate-rise-began-when-schools-reopened-but-direct-link-unproven-says-sage/

It must indeed be difficult to establish whether there's transmission in a high risk environment where kids are packed in like sardines with no mitigation measures. A real head-scratcher. Especially if you spent the whole summer insisting that it would be fine because the kids are facing forward.

What do we want? Well, one of the major teaching unions has called on the government to:

1. Demonstrate that they are following the scientific evidence and advice.
2. Strengthen the guidance to schools and colleges on ensuring COVID-safe and COVID-secure working practices.
3. Secure the updating and publication of health and safety risk assessments and equality impact assessments by school and college employers.
4. Publish weekly data on positive cases of COVID-19 infections of school/college staff and pupils by local government area
5. Ramp up inspection and enforcement measures in schools and colleges, including more comprehensive use of spot checks and visits by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE).
6. Take swift action to protect public health in the event of an outbreak.
7. Protect vulnerable teachers and support staff and pupils.
8. Strengthen the guidance to insist on effective social distancing in schools/colleges.
9. Establish a national plan for remote education/blended and distance learning.

10. Provide significant additional financial support for schools and colleges urgently to ensure the safety of staff and pupils, including extra funding for cleaning, personal protective equipment (PPE) and supply teachers

www.nasuwt.org.uk/article-listing/plan-to-keep-schools-safe-during-pandemic.html

Oh OP I knew this would be you yadayada...yeah that's why I chose the same thread title as before etc etc.

Why do we need another thread blah blah: it's because secondary school kids are now infected at the highest rates in the country. This has implications for lockdown. How effective will it be if the most infected subset of the population are mixing freely? And it's also the first hint from scientists that they might have been wrong about exactly how safe schools are. There's also a strong suggestion that kids are bringing the virus home from school which parents should be aware of.

It's also causing chaos in schools, but there's another thread about that.

TheSunisStillShining you're absolutely right that if schools had had the trust and financial support of central government to plan and organise their teaching from September in ways that took account of their unique pupil/staff profile, resources etc the autumn term would have likely gone much better for most schools.

Combined with better mitigation measures, routine testing and efficient track and trace, education would have been much less disrupted and everyone involved in schools would be physically and psychologically safer.

Unfortunately, that isn't how education is set up in the UK. School staff found out what govt plans were about opening in the summer when they heard it on the radio or tv along with everyone else. They received information about which occupations were classes as 'key workers' on the day that schools were instructed to close in March. The govt released umpteen separate pieces of guidance which schools were legally obligated to follow, including gems being dropped in the middle of a bank holiday etc.

However much the schools that you approached would have liked to take you up on your kind offer, they couldn't because they have to take their guidance from central govt who had decided that all schools will be open to all children full time from September.

Despite the fact that their own poor virus response has meant that that isn't happening.

CEV teachers need more protection. I know that’s not easy; some schools will be fine, in some schools the distribution of staff may make it tough.

Extremely clinically vulnerable members of staff in schools have been sent the same letters as other ECV people, applicable for this period of lockdown.

From the government guidance on shielding, updated 13th November:
You are strongly advised to work from home. If you cannot work from home, you should not attend work for this period of restrictions

This means that we have lost 4 members of staff (from a small primary school).

track and trace seating planning

Track and trace related to seating planning is just bullshit. Utter nonsense.

We know that covid spreads best in poorly ventilated indoor spaces with no social distancing and lots of talking and we’re really supposed to believe that only the kid who sits next to a positive case is in real danger of having caught it?

The biggest issue in secondary schools for me at the moment is that we know kids have it, but we don’t know which kids have it. I am 100% certain that testing kids who display main symptoms only is putting people in unnecessary and unacceptable danger. Some kids will be asymptomatic and some will have different symptoms to the ones you get tested for and yet the government is actively avoiding finding them.

I am advocating rota systems for secondary as i believe class sizes in small classrooms need to halved. The buildings are overcrowded and we have a long Winter ahead. I would much rather this to the random closures currently taking place.

Again, why do you think this is either/or? It sounds like you think random closures would stop if schools were part-time - they might reduce (you would hope and expect they would) but they wouldn't stop. I think part-time school would have much support if it meant no more closures, but it doesn't.

To be fair to noble she's not advocating part time or blended.

I am advocating for rotas for secondary in areas where spread is rife.

@CallmeAngelina

"One was on the vaccination threads when I pointed out it wasn’t all about teachers."

And, out of interest, had any teacher/poster said it was all about teachers?

When I read that thread I think ONE poster had said teachers should have some form of priority over vulnerable people.

Pretty much every poster, teaches included, then posted disagreeing and saying that vulnerable people should be prioritised.

Some, teachers and non teachers, posted that vulnerable should be first but teaching staff ought to be above the general public In order to keep schools open.

Then you ended up with some posters coming on stating that teachers wanted it all about them and that they weren't more important than anyone else, and why should they get priority over anyone.

It should be noted that it was almost all non teachers who managed turned the thread into a teacher thread.

Some posters couldn't see why vaccinating teachers might help keep schools open longer and ensure that children were more likely to have more time in school and less time isolating if that happened.

I ended up adding it to my growing list of hidden threads.

@howaboutholly

The discussion had certainly started to focus on teachers, but you’re free to have a read of it angelina.

Like it or not, when stories like this (some upsetting content) are published, when doctors are sustaining serious burns trying to save patients, when we complain about not accessing the vaccination or about being unsafe in a school, it doesn’t look good.

And just to reassure you I equally roll my eyes at the cold sad children who can’t sing happy birthday in a room with an open window. I am most indiscriminate with my eye rolling.

That's a totally unrelated subject to this though holly.

To be fair if my school was on fire and had trapped children in I'd probably do everything I could to save them too, as would pretty much every adult I know.

But that's nothing to do with what we are taking about here and nothing to do with the vaccination thread either.

I think with things like the vaccination thread it's the speed at which the first inevitable 'BUT WHAT ABOUT TEACHERS???' starts that makes people roll their eyes - MN can seem so obsessed with it as a single issue. It matters a lot to me too - I'm married to a teacher and would really rather he didn't develop Covid, both for his sake and because I'm in my third trimester - but the way it takes over every single thread can be quite wearying and I think it does grate on people. It's not the only MN obsession like this - similarly, I have some sympathy with many of the arguments about trans issues on the feminism boards but wish they wouldn't shoe-horn it into every single discussion - and they all tend to get some pushback because it annoys people.

*But to do so, I've had to actively go against government and school advice, and front up to the threat of fines.

Ironically, I've been able to do so largely because I'm educated and articulate. This should not be a pre-requisite for keeping your family safe during a pandemic!*

exactly our situation. I don't even know the phrase that would describe what I'm feeling at this.
Gov cannot ans should not put responsibility on individuals. We have a gov system to actually do the work that we individuals can't do.
They are not doing their work at best, at worst they are neglectful and endangering lives. This is the first point in my life that I really want to have a class lawsuit against them and I would participate whatever disruption that would mean on my life.

One thing the momentary situation of endangering lives/health.
BUT
There is enough evidence suggesting long covid is something real and tangible. So they are endangering the lives of healthy young people for current ideology. These kids might be asymptomatic now, but might have complications down the line. As they were not even tested many will not even know the correlation/causation. Which means that they potentially could be mistreated or take longer to diagnose.

How parents -en mass- assist to this I don't understand.
If nothing else parents should be banging on full time mask wearing all the time, everywhere. Cheap and effective. But instead schools still not making it mandatory.

@Hardbackwriter

I am advocating rota systems for secondary as i believe class sizes in small classrooms need to halved. The buildings are overcrowded and we have a long Winter ahead. I would much rather this to the random closures currently taking place.

Again, why do you think this is either/or? It sounds like you think random closures would stop if schools were part-time - they might reduce (you would hope and expect they would) but they wouldn't stop. I think part-time school would have much support if it meant no more closures, but it doesn't.

I agree that even with rotas there could still be closures but seeing 30 kids sitting in a small enclosed room, shoulder to shoulder for hours at a time and then turning out into pack corridors with hundreds of others is not the way to continue. If rotas had been organised in September when community cases were lower we could have been in a better position by now. I'm so annoyed watching things deteriorate. The twits who were so vocal saying no masks in schools seem to have disappeared.

The OP of the vaccination thread specifically mentioned teachers and invited discussion of whether they should be prioritised. Castigating people for being on topic is tedious.

The twits who were so vocal saying no masks in schools seem to have disappeared.

Sadly they really haven't. They were on twitter the other day accusing a poor headteacher of child abuse for mandating masks in the classroom.

I'm really not surprised that heads are avoiding being put in that situation. The government need to be the one to take the lead.

[quote Graciebobcat]@SansaSnark Thank you. I agree with all of that. Schools are having a really difficult time and are carrying on as best they can. I don't think this equates to "fucked" though. GCSE and A-Level exams are certainly "fucked" though this year and must be cancelled in England, with teenagers having such uneven chances to get a full education, and being in and out of school so frequently. DDs' schools have had a few cases and some partial isolation of class groups, but this is becoming more frequent and will clearly get worse before it gets better.[/quote]
My school is in a similar situation to your DD's school- actually probably slightly better- but our budget is absolutely fucked this year. And if/when we run out of money, then the education of all the kids will suffer.

If we put aside emotion: teachers should be high in the line for vaccination. Simply because they have the means and opportunity -by profession- to infect many and be super spreaders just by doing their jobs.

It has nothing to do with emotion and what people like.

If we would look rationally on who should be vaccinated we would get a diff list than what is circulated now. But people cannot think more than 2 logic steps ahead. Gov can't even go that far.

I Hope everyone is prepped for homeschooling again come 2021...

Yeah ECV kids also shouldn't attend school.
However have a ECV parents send your kids on or we will fine you.

@howaboutholly

For isolation, you mean? I’m not sure they are herc, or not in large numbers, anyway.

Some schools seem to be going down the ‘only close contacts need to SI’ for one thing, so the whole year group aren’t necessarily out. But even in cases where they are, people can plan for and arrange around an emergency, whether that’s using annual leave or taking unpaid leave or flexible hours, WFH too. The problem is when that’s long term - if (say) a school made an arrangement that Y7 would be in Monday and Tuesday and then working remotely Wednesday, Thursday and Friday for the foreseeable that’s harder to sort.

I also can’t pretend I think it’s a good idea for other reasons. Everyone who works with children knows there isn’t a clear black and white divide between children who are vulnerable and children who aren’t. It’s more nuanced than that. I think being alone, unsupervised, for that amount of time is going to create children who are vulnerable when previously they weren’t, if you see what I mean. Then you have some very predatory people who will be just delighted there are a number of young people left alone in the day.

Like I’ve said above, it was right to lockdown and close schools when we did. It’s right to protect a section of society (primarily the elderly) but it doesn’t mean we can completely ignore other vastly important aspects that come when you close schools - and closing them to one year group even for a couple of days a week is closing them.

They really really are- if there are enough cases in a bubble, the year group still gets sent home. Of my teacher friends, I also know of 3 where the school is currently closed to KS3 or only seeing them on a rota basis due to staff shortages.

In my genuine opinion as a Y7 form tutor, 2 days on, 2 days off would be a lot better for a lot of the "grey area" vulnerable kids than multiple periods of 2 week isolation as has happened in other schools.

I also think when it's predictable, parents are more able to organise childcare- don't forget in blended learning, the kids are not in isolation, so could leave the house and go to grandparents, for example. I know it isn't an option for everyone, but it's an option for some.

Just being able to leave the house is a huge deal for a lot of kids as well- it's the thought of being trapped at home that really scares some of them.

I believe you. I’m just pointing out every school does it differently. Bubbles are a nonsense really but I have to admit I don’t have a solution.

Every school does as they are advised by PHE. When cases reach a certain threshold, the bubble is shut.

FWIW, we know that rota systems and social distancing in school keeps the infection rate down, because we did it in Y10 in the summer. If the infection rate is low, then far less people test positive, thus less bubbles asked to isolate.

In my opinion, we should shut schools for 2 weeks, and then reopen on a rota system, slowly increasing until we get to the level where schools start to drive infections in an unacceptable way again. That opinion is far more extreme than most teachers on this thread, but I honestly believe it's the only way to get infections in schools under control.

I think what most other teachers are asking for are things like masks in the classroom, regular random/mass testing in schools, clear guidance on how to manage social distancing in schools and so on, and also some proper financial support from the government.

I think we need to find a solution to schools as a matter of urgency. It's right that we should prioritise schools and education BUT over the summer schools were closed and everything was open and we were ok(ish). Now schools are open and everything else is closed and we are still not OK.

At some point, I feel that young people who work in hospitality/retail etc are going to ask why schools are being prioritised over everything else, with no effort to reduce transmission in schools. People are going to start asking what economic impact is greater.

You didn't confirm if kids are wearing masks in class but you said you were doing that already so I assume so in which case you're in an extremely unusual boat and a very different one to the rest of us.

I can't agree that a seating plan and an open window equals, "the works".

Wrong thread! I've asked for it to be deleted...

I can't agree that a seating plan and an open window equals, "the works".

I know. How can it be that standards are so low that teachers are just grateful if the room they're currently teaching in has a window that not only opens a crack, but stays open.

I haven't quite figured out if having the windows open but the blinds down because kids can't see with the sun in their eyes counts as adequate ventilation.

@noblegiraffe

I can't agree that a seating plan and an open window equals, "the works".

I know. How can it be that standards are so low that teachers are just grateful if the room they're currently teaching in has a window that not only opens a crack, but stays open.

I haven't quite figured out if having the windows open but the blinds down because kids can't see with the sun in their eyes counts as adequate ventilation.

From logic: no. The blinds will make air movement restricted at best, or channel it downwards at worst.

I know that really, Sun but what to do about it? The blinds are left up a bit at the bottom but who knows what difference that makes.

We’ve had the ‘too cold classrooms’ and it was generally agreed windows need to be open, but not the ‘kids can’t see’ one.