Secondary schools are fucked, BOFFINS ADMIT

[noblegiraffe]

Latest ONS random sampling data shows that secondary school children in Y7-11 are now the age group with the highest infection rate in England, overtaking sixth form and university students.

In Wales "Schoolchildren are more likely to catch and spread coronavirus than previously thought, experts have warned... It was also discovered that while children were far more likely to be asymptomatic and not become seriously unwell, they were more likely to be the first positive case in any household."

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/health/schoolchildren-more-likely-catch-spread-19275959?fbclid=IwAR0kpoikv0D_nkwHx3lVyQX_cyDj6Ycy1d6gE3aRx6syxUKzFQsYzMDSqPw

English boffins are a bit slower on the uptake though
"SAGE’s report found that prevalence of Covid-19 in school-age children had “risen significantly” in the first wave, and that the rise in prevalence was “first visible around the time that schools reopened”.

However, it said that while this “may be indicative of a potential role for school opening, causation, including the extent to which transmission is occurring in schools, is unproven and difficult to establish”.

schoolsweek.co.uk/child-infection-rate-rise-began-when-schools-reopened-but-direct-link-unproven-says-sage/

It must indeed be difficult to establish whether there's transmission in a high risk environment where kids are packed in like sardines with no mitigation measures. A real head-scratcher. Especially if you spent the whole summer insisting that it would be fine because the kids are facing forward.

What do we want? Well, one of the major teaching unions has called on the government to:

1. Demonstrate that they are following the scientific evidence and advice.
2. Strengthen the guidance to schools and colleges on ensuring COVID-safe and COVID-secure working practices.
3. Secure the updating and publication of health and safety risk assessments and equality impact assessments by school and college employers.
4. Publish weekly data on positive cases of COVID-19 infections of school/college staff and pupils by local government area
5. Ramp up inspection and enforcement measures in schools and colleges, including more comprehensive use of spot checks and visits by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE).
6. Take swift action to protect public health in the event of an outbreak.
7. Protect vulnerable teachers and support staff and pupils.
8. Strengthen the guidance to insist on effective social distancing in schools/colleges.
9. Establish a national plan for remote education/blended and distance learning.

10. Provide significant additional financial support for schools and colleges urgently to ensure the safety of staff and pupils, including extra funding for cleaning, personal protective equipment (PPE) and supply teachers

www.nasuwt.org.uk/article-listing/plan-to-keep-schools-safe-during-pandemic.html

Oh OP I knew this would be you yadayada...yeah that's why I chose the same thread title as before etc etc.

Why do we need another thread blah blah: it's because secondary school kids are now infected at the highest rates in the country. This has implications for lockdown. How effective will it be if the most infected subset of the population are mixing freely? And it's also the first hint from scientists that they might have been wrong about exactly how safe schools are. There's also a strong suggestion that kids are bringing the virus home from school which parents should be aware of.

It's also causing chaos in schools, but there's another thread about that.

@howaboutholly

Probably having their parent take some leave, or WFH. There is a difference between part time education for the long term and a couple of weeks.

It is in absolutely no ones interest to have very young people - and some year 7s will only just have turned 11 - unsupervised at home for weeks at a time. You have a Y7 child, don’t you? Can you honestly, hand on heart, say you’d be OK with leaving him home alone for five days a week?

You know this is happening anyway, don't you?

Some y7s will have been told to self isolate for 2 weeks since the start of the term. Some will have had to do it twice. If they are really unlucky they may have also got a cough and had to stay off for a few extra days whilst awaiting a test.

If blended learning was in place, at least it would be consistent and planned for, and would minimise the sudden disruption.

When schools do partial closures due to lack of staff, it's usually Ks3 who go off first as well.

You understand that the reality is you could be told tomorrow to keep your Y7 child home for 2 weeks, right?

And yes, it is a worry. I have a Y7 tutor group and there are some I would definitely worry about in this circumstance. If we did 2 days on, 2 days off, at least I'd physically see them a couple of times a week...

@Graciebobcat

What does the thread starter mean by "fucked"? It seems an odd, alarmist and yet curiously non-specific choice of words.

I don't know what OP means by fucked, but I think the word choice does need to be non-specific because different schools are facing different problems.

Going roughly from most extreme to least:
-schools shut due to lack of staff or very high number of covid cases in school.

-schools doing partial closures due to lack of staff.

-schools where covid is pretty much endemic in the school population, who are having a revolving door of year groups off.

-schools where Covid isn't endemic in the school but there are enough kids testing positive that 20-30% are having to isolate at any one time.

-schools with no or very few cases that are still having to deal with higher than usual levels of pupil and staff absence, cope with ever changing rules and the constant fear that Covid will become endemic in the school population.

Schools are fucked both in terms of trying to give a good education and financially (due to the additional costs they are facing).

@Loftyloft

I think we need to acknowledge that older teenagers definitely have a greater risk than younger teenagers and children. Unfortunately this is also the age who most need strong education at the moment for exams and their future.

I do think CEV children should be allowed to stay home without losing their place. And CEV teachers need more protection. I know that’s not easy; some schools will be fine, in some schools the distribution of staff may make it tough.

School should remain open though as far as they possibly can be.

Tbf ECV children and staff can now stay home due to lockdown.

The issues are now:

-children and staff with ECV family members who don't feel comfortable coming into school.

-CV children and staff who don't feel comfortable in school.

-making sure ECV children don't miss out on their education in as far as possible.

@SansaSnark Thank you. I agree with all of that. Schools are having a really difficult time and are carrying on as best they can. I don't think this equates to "fucked" though. GCSE and A-Level exams are certainly "fucked" though this year and must be cancelled in England, with teenagers having such uneven chances to get a full education, and being in and out of school so frequently. DDs' schools have had a few cases and some partial isolation of class groups, but this is becoming more frequent and will clearly get worse before it gets better.

We are primary not secondary yet still had a scenario at one point where out of years 1-6 we only had two year groups not self-isolating. It’s also going to be interesting if any bubbles close the week before Christmas because then technically any staff and pupils won’t be able to see their families for Christmas (assuming that’s allowed by that point).

You're right Ginger 😬. I was just saying to dh yesterday that maybe we should self isolate from the start of December to ensure a 'safe' Christmas 🙈.

It's only anecdotal, but my y10 DD is now on her fourth bubble burst!

@TheSunIsStillShining Really interesting post.

I think some of your points are valid. However there are pockets of excellence and plenty of places are doing more than just providing homework.

Oak academy was government funded and has a year's worth of learning including videos and online tasks.

Lots of what you have suggested is already happening. Across our MAT we created lessons for isolating students in different subjects where relevant. We've identified students without tech and tried to provide where we can. The issue there is the Internet connection nor often than the device.

The majority of schools and teachers have learned to use new platforms incredibly quickly. Yes there are training courses on MS Teams but schools have configured it differently so it can look/feel different. Some places have also overridden settings etc. It's not as easy as watch this central video and get on with it.

There's also the issue of underfunded schools for the past 10 years. Internet connections in school are cheap and not great.

I'm incredibly proud how the majority of schools and teachers have adapted to the new world they are teaching in. There is very little evidence about best practise for blended learning, one thing that has been found is that live lessons are not better than a pre recorded lesson.

At my school the rules are that if it is just individual students self isolating they will be set bridging work of the same length and depth as those in school.

If a whole bubble is isolating or if/when schools close students are set a live lesson every other lesson and bridging lessons in between. These won't have to be live to air videos but recorded so they can be accessed when possible and paused, rewatched etc. There will also be live access to teachers during their lesson time for support with learning and they can email teachers and schedule calls if needed.

All schools have plans like this now and it's a legal requirement.

It's personally easier for me as a teacher if kids stay in school. The same is true for most I assume. Recording lessons and setting work that is suitably differentiated (particularly for radically lower ability kids) and chasing up parents and children who aren't engaging and passive learners who will ask endless questions rather than read the instructions (at least in class we can repeat ourselves endlessly to a number of them at once rather than answering 100 hundred emails) etc would be harder for me than just going into school and teaching as normal.

I think some parents are under the impression that teachers are lazy and want schools to shut when in reality our lives would be harder and with the legal requirements we'd be endlessly monitored and have plenty of hoops to jump through. Not to mention I'd be simultaneously trying to deal with my unmotivated teenage son and getting him to work.

It's in my interests for school to stay open but it needs to be safer and we can't have a system that was designed for bubbles being sent home in the event of a case (therefore allowing whole year groups to mix in corridors, lunch queues, break times and share toilets and equipment and classrooms) when in fact now we can only send people home who sat next to a positive case in class. That isn't safe and is why infection rates are climbing.

If people don't like people accusing others of stalking then report it.

I have to be honest noble and I have a longstanding MN bond and I wasn't sure how old her DC was/ are , how many she has or really anything.

But to fight decent, statistically supported arguments with sniping about discussions on staffroom (anyone looking on academic common room to see what they are saying?) and using pejorative language such as 'cheerleaders' is not fighting fire with fire. If all you can do is say 'you again' then you have lost the argument. Tackle the ball, not the man.

Clearly, no one wants to leave DCs at home (although I was regularly as a child, must say) but there will have to be a solution at some point if things don't improve. Vocal parents' groups and employers' lobbies should not be driving public health strategy.

Holly if you don't like noble's actual threads, contact MNHQ. I am sure they will leave them standing. There are threads started that I find irritating. I ignore them. Casting aspersions on -and scolding - the OP is what actually encourages the pile on. It starts when the first person does that. Why can't you -and others- just roll your eyes and move on? I am not suggesting counterargument should be stifled. There are posters who do this perfectly respectfully.

Piggy I don’t like the threads. They cause teacher bashing, they don’t prevent it. I don’t think I’m the only one who feels like this, tbh. That doesn’t mean they are breaking talk guidelines. I’m not even being drawn back into those insane accusations of stalking. Let’s put it down to being a bit overwrought with everything that’s going on, and move on.

holly you have searched my posts and tried to use what you have found against me. That’s weirdly obsessive and I’m not the one in the wrong for calling it out.

I have not searched your posts, giraffe, and I really think you need to stop accusing me of being a ‘stalker’, ‘obsessive’, having a ‘spreadsheet’ and the like because I remembered the age of your child.

I think this is a diversion, TBH. You haven’t answered, because you can’t. You wouldn’t leave your own eleven year old at home alone five days a week, would you?

You wouldn’t leave your own eleven year old at home alone five days a week, would you?

Plenty of parents are having to do that already.

So should the data just be hidden away holly? I have never seen a a schools data thread started by anyone that hasn't been piled on by people sneering, castigating, launching personal attacks, suggesting MH issues for the OP or accusing posters of scaremongering whilst using factual data.

Shall we just not let parents see school data?

thesunisshining I understand your frustration that teachers haven’t banded together, planned blended learning properly in online workshops etc but what is missing from your post is the pandemic and everything else that has been going on.

How could schools have got together and planned blended learning when we have been constantly
a) actually still teaching the kids
b) reacting to changing government demands - schools closed. Schools to be open in June to various year groups then at the last minute the guidelines changing so everything that had been planned had to be binned
c) the government saying that schools had to be open full time from September - plans for that also constantly changing

Everyone is looking around and waiting for someone higher up to solve the problem when it is glaringly obvious that higher up is assholes galore

But we have to follow what higher up say. If higher up say no blended learning then there’s literally no point in going to massive efforts to plan it.

For isolation, you mean? I’m not sure they are herc, or not in large numbers, anyway.

Some schools seem to be going down the ‘only close contacts need to SI’ for one thing, so the whole year group aren’t necessarily out. But even in cases where they are, people can plan for and arrange around an emergency, whether that’s using annual leave or taking unpaid leave or flexible hours, WFH too. The problem is when that’s long term - if (say) a school made an arrangement that Y7 would be in Monday and Tuesday and then working remotely Wednesday, Thursday and Friday for the foreseeable that’s harder to sort.

I also can’t pretend I think it’s a good idea for other reasons. Everyone who works with children knows there isn’t a clear black and white divide between children who are vulnerable and children who aren’t. It’s more nuanced than that. I think being alone, unsupervised, for that amount of time is going to create children who are vulnerable when previously they weren’t, if you see what I mean. Then you have some very predatory people who will be just delighted there are a number of young people left alone in the day.

Like I’ve said above, it was right to lockdown and close schools when we did. It’s right to protect a section of society (primarily the elderly) but it doesn’t mean we can completely ignore other vastly important aspects that come when you close schools - and closing them to one year group even for a couple of days a week is closing them.

@howaboutholly yes, I would (my older non disabled DC). I wouldn't have had a problem with it at 11/12 to be honest. Of course, that is in part as he had learnt to be very independent and resilient by that age due to his sibling's disability and actually, also the fact that DH and I raised him to be resilient and independent. So yes, I would not have a problem with it.

I think my concern is how it’s done, piggy, but like I say, I really don’t want to be drawn back into a daft argument about she said this and she saw that (I don’t mean you, btw but I was genuinely a bit gobsmacked last night and I really think it’s best we move on!)

For isolation, you mean? I’m not sure they are herc, or not in large numbers, anyway.

Depends on your definition of large numbers. Estimated approx 1/3 students have had a period of isolation since Sept.

But even in cases where they are, people can plan for and arrange around an emergency, whether that’s using annual leave or taking unpaid leave or flexible hours, WFH too. The problem is when that’s long term - if (say) a school made an arrangement that Y7 would be in Monday and Tuesday and then working remotely Wednesday, Thursday and Friday for the foreseeable that’s harder to sort.

It's harder to sort emergency stuff at the moment. You can't use childcare for isolating kids (obviously).

My 3yo is on his second 2 week isolation. A planned for 3 day week would be preferable.

Then you have some very predatory people who will be just delighted there are a number of young people left alone in the day.

Did these people appear during the first lockdown?

At least with a rota system, those children wouldn't always be at home. Vulnerable children will always be jn school (and have been).

@Hercwasonaroll
This issue with what you are saying is that -as a system- it created inequalities. It depends on pot luck if the teacher are tech savvy or not...

On technology - I was thinking more in general terms. Like setting work with proper due dates. Opening meets in a proper timely fashion, using it to communicate with students (eg private msgs, not whole class comments).... Our school is mostly great (I hate them atm but that shall pass hopefully). But most teachers still who cannot organize a classroom content properly. Work and supporting material are treated the same, it's hard to find.

And another aspect: kids need to be taught how to use it as well. Not the technology, but the actual usage patterns. Set things to Done, what timeframes are acceptable for response....
I've had countless arguments with my son on setting things to Done. It's not mandatory, teachers don't even mention it. So he didn't do it. Then went into every classroom looking for work because his todo list was long. It took time to get used to.

Therefore, Holly, isn't it rather important that we take notice of the things that noble suggests for making schools safer?
And Piggy has beaten me to it. Ive interacted with noble on here many many times and I couldn't have told you the age or sex of her child. (Sorry, noble!)
And I particularly disliked your nasty jibe, holly, in suggesting she "sleep it off."
Sleep "what" off?

I have not searched your posts, giraffe

This is an obvious lie, holly. You said You post on Mumsnet under the same name for over a decade and I’m expected to believe you just remembered when I started posting? Give over.

You posted on another thread whinging about how you were bored to tears of the discussion about teachers’ working conditions and yet here you are on this one making digs at me about cheerleaders and whatnot. Clearly as you’re bored about teacher discussions, you are on this thread because it’s mine and you want to have a further go at me.

So yes, weirdly obsessed.

I don’t think it’s really about independence and resilience, though monkey. That’s not what I’m saying at all.

For one thing, not all eleven year olds live in nice middle class areas, we know this. There are some who will be at risk from being at home alone during the day, because of people who live locally who are the sort who would take advantage. It’s one of the reasons that truancy and poor school attendance are such big red flags, obviously, a child who isn’t going to school is often going to be going somewhere else instead - the shops or the chippy or wherever - and that’s still true even in lockdown. And there are adults who will take full advantage.

Then not all parents work 9-5. If you work a 12 hour day, it’s one thing for your child to be alone for a few hours in the evening, not ideal but OK then, but some parents might genuinely be leaving a child from 7 in the morning to 9 at night, and that really isn’t OK. My parents were definitely at the lax end of the parenting scale and being resilient is ultimately no help when a psycho in a mask is breaking into your house (believe me!)

That’s not saying an average 11 year old shouldn’t be able to be left alone for a few hours at a time but the problem is when it’s a regular thing, and people are aware of it, that child is extremely vulnerable, no matter how resilient they may be. In fact I’d argue that’s a sure fire way of having a child LOSE resilience and independence.

I read all Noble’s threads, those in the Staffroom and otherwise. I appreciate her well reasoned and evidenced based arguments. She has consistently said that schools should stay open while being made safer, and she has suggested a sensible range of measures to to be taken to ensure this.
Even so, I had entirely missed (or forgotten) that she has a DS. It can’t have been mentioned very often.
Oh, and if secondary schools are fucked, FE colleges are even more fucked. Similar lack of social distancing, an even less mask compliant demographic, groups in on daily/weekly/monthly bases, all from different employment sectors, including risky ones, all mixing outside the premises, cramped, unventilated classrooms and workshops, similar do or die attitude from management, along with magical thinking regarding the anti-viral properties of tape on the floor and imaginary bubbles.