Secondary schools are fucked, BOFFINS ADMIT

[noblegiraffe]

Latest ONS random sampling data shows that secondary school children in Y7-11 are now the age group with the highest infection rate in England, overtaking sixth form and university students.

In Wales "Schoolchildren are more likely to catch and spread coronavirus than previously thought, experts have warned... It was also discovered that while children were far more likely to be asymptomatic and not become seriously unwell, they were more likely to be the first positive case in any household."

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/health/schoolchildren-more-likely-catch-spread-19275959?fbclid=IwAR0kpoikv0D_nkwHx3lVyQX_cyDj6Ycy1d6gE3aRx6syxUKzFQsYzMDSqPw

English boffins are a bit slower on the uptake though
"SAGE’s report found that prevalence of Covid-19 in school-age children had “risen significantly” in the first wave, and that the rise in prevalence was “first visible around the time that schools reopened”.

However, it said that while this “may be indicative of a potential role for school opening, causation, including the extent to which transmission is occurring in schools, is unproven and difficult to establish”.

schoolsweek.co.uk/child-infection-rate-rise-began-when-schools-reopened-but-direct-link-unproven-says-sage/

It must indeed be difficult to establish whether there's transmission in a high risk environment where kids are packed in like sardines with no mitigation measures. A real head-scratcher. Especially if you spent the whole summer insisting that it would be fine because the kids are facing forward.

What do we want? Well, one of the major teaching unions has called on the government to:

1. Demonstrate that they are following the scientific evidence and advice.
2. Strengthen the guidance to schools and colleges on ensuring COVID-safe and COVID-secure working practices.
3. Secure the updating and publication of health and safety risk assessments and equality impact assessments by school and college employers.
4. Publish weekly data on positive cases of COVID-19 infections of school/college staff and pupils by local government area
5. Ramp up inspection and enforcement measures in schools and colleges, including more comprehensive use of spot checks and visits by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE).
6. Take swift action to protect public health in the event of an outbreak.
7. Protect vulnerable teachers and support staff and pupils.
8. Strengthen the guidance to insist on effective social distancing in schools/colleges.
9. Establish a national plan for remote education/blended and distance learning.

10. Provide significant additional financial support for schools and colleges urgently to ensure the safety of staff and pupils, including extra funding for cleaning, personal protective equipment (PPE) and supply teachers

www.nasuwt.org.uk/article-listing/plan-to-keep-schools-safe-during-pandemic.html

Oh OP I knew this would be you yadayada...yeah that's why I chose the same thread title as before etc etc.

Why do we need another thread blah blah: it's because secondary school kids are now infected at the highest rates in the country. This has implications for lockdown. How effective will it be if the most infected subset of the population are mixing freely? And it's also the first hint from scientists that they might have been wrong about exactly how safe schools are. There's also a strong suggestion that kids are bringing the virus home from school which parents should be aware of.

It's also causing chaos in schools, but there's another thread about that.

noblegiraffe
Do you know, Clav, when I posted that petition I nearly said ‘Clav will be along in a minute to say that schools are actually rolling in cash because they saved money on photocopying in lockdown’.

To be fair - I haven't posted on (or read) many of your school threads recently. I am as confused and conflicted as everyone else regarding pupil transmission of the virus in schools. However, some extracts from one of your links; "The Welsh Government's Technical Advisory Group (TAG)" - 9 November;

"This new evidence indicates that schools being open is associated with higher rates of infection in the population, although the mechanism for this remains unclear (potentially including many factors such as reopening of workplaces, parents returning to work, shops and hospitality, social mixing outside schools)." ...

"Online or blended learning alone, or when used in an inappropriate context, or when not accessible by the student, is not a sufficient long term substitute for classroom teaching and its prolonged use is likely to disadvantage digitally excluded students and increase inequality." ...

"Virus transmission to and from children and young people may occur in household, community and educational settings, and there is a lack of evidence to identify the most significant contributor to transmission of the ‘end to end’ behaviours and contacts associated with childcare, school or college attendance but not occurring in the care or education settings themselves. Children’s and adults’ journeys to and from school and other extracurricular or wrap around activities and gatherings, gathering at school gates or at drop off and pick up points, shared lifts, use of school or public transport, increased inter-adult contacts such as return to work or greater social mixing, may all contribute to increased risk of transmission. Current analyses are unable to pin down the precise role of each interaction in transmission." ...

"Considering risks to school and teaching staff, ONS data indicates that teaching is not a high risk profession, with positivity rates of pre-school, primary and secondary school teachers and staff of comparable ages, and household members, statistically similar to other low risk workplaces." ...

"Clinically extremely vulnerable (CEV) staff should follow CMO guidance about working from home if possible" ...

"Staff and students should be supported to understand the importance of controls on social mixing and reducing the number of daily face to face contacts, especially outside the controlled educational environment, to reduce risks of infection" ...

You are wrong, Tfoot75

The graph in the OP is from the ONS random sampling survey and shows the infection rate, not positivity rate is highest in secondary school aged children.

The PHE surveillance data relies on people with symptoms going for tests and we know the government has told parents not to get kids tested.

That’s probably why their positivity rate is so high.

worriedaboutrecording
Say 200 children enrolled in Y11 gives £18,000 refund per school.

Plus refunds for A-level and AS exam fees if the school has a sixth form - another circa £14,000 for 200 pupils taking 3 A-levels.

Do you know what that actually equates to in the running of a school?

I know that school funding was increased this year;
"School funding allocations 2020-21"

dfemedia.blog.gov.uk/2019/10/11/school-funding-allocations-2020-21/

My post implies there are two vociferous groups in this particular debate who will not be brought together by giraffe’s threads. Obviously there will also be fence-sitters.

2 groups:

1. Those who want safer schools for staff, pupils and pupil’s families.

1. Those who want the ‘schools aren’t safe’ threads to disappear, as they are scared that they might raise attention to the point that schools might close again and that will cause childcare issues for working parents?

Any parent who would rather be blind and deaf to the issues schools are dealing with right now, is a fool. We have one extremely sick little boy off school at the moment, because people would rather not mention Covid in schools.

another circa £14,000 for 200 pupils taking 3 A-levels.
Most school sixth forms are considerably smaller than 200 students. Ours is approx 60 and we don't enter for AS because we can't afford it. Hardly a gold mine.

You haven't acknowledged that out of a school budget it's still a tiny amount.

Two weeks of cover in the current climate....

Why don’t you drop the pretence that you don’t want schools to close, when the plethora of threads with ‘data’ you have started demonstrate exactly the opposite?

This is theory of mind stuff. You look at the data and think it means schools need to close so you assume that must also be the conclusion that I’m drawing despite the fact that I am not. You don’t want schools to close therefore the solution is that I stop posting the data.

My daughter goes to a small - medium-sized state primary and there hasn’t been ONE confirmed Covid case.

Have you read the title of this thread?

But can they be made 100% safe? It’s impossible. Too many factors are involved - even if schools do implement and follow all the necessary procedures. Parents and families also need to follow the rules and so many don’t. To a certain extent we have to accept that spread cannot be prevented and just try and contain it to the best of our abilities.

To be fair - I haven't posted on (or read) many of your school threads recently.

I know, that’s why I didn’t post it Clav, I kind of thought you’d left MN.

I am as confused and conflicted as everyone else regarding pupil transmission of the virus in schools.

Do you know which group isn’t confused? Secondary school teachers. We can bloody well see the virus being transmitted in schools. We can see the total inadequacy of sending home close contacts only. We can see kids coming in with symptoms. We can see kids being sent in after having a test and then being positive. We can see kids being off for a couple of days with covid symptoms then coming back in.

It’s not rocket science.

The biggest increase in cost is paying for supply though (where they are available). A supply teacher costs a school around £200 a day. That will really quickly eat through any money saved in the summer, or money refunded from exams.

Balanced by savings earlier in the year? Tes - 3rd November;

"Exclusive:1/4 supply teachers forced to skimp on food."

"Survey reveals despair of supply teachers in pandemic as work dries up."

"The research, carried out by the NASUWT teaching union, also reveals that 23 per cent have been forced to take other jobs outside of teaching, mostly on lower pay, since the pandemic struck."

"While 80 per cent were not able to secure any supply teaching work between March and the end of previous school year"

www.tes.com/news/coronavirus-exclusive-14-supply-teachers-forced-skimp-food

But can they be made 100% safe?

Obviously not. Can they be made safer? Obviously yes. Why are they not? Because there’s no political will.

I don't understand why it's so hard to put mandatory stuff out.

Every half hour, have all windows and doors open and get students up and maybe out.

A door need to be opened to draw the air thru.

Have visors, try and stagger learning.

I'd love to see some of the people who write these guild lines try and implement them on stroppy, bored, non compliant teens

To a certain extent we have to accept that spread cannot be prevented and just try and contain it to the best of our abilities.

The whole point of this thread is that currently we aren't at the "best of our abilities" otherwise we'd have more measures in place.

I must admit I was deeply disappointed when Boris fudged over a question at the briefing... Something like '' seeing as you're insisting on school left open.. Why are you not prioritising teachers and students for the jab, and staff in school ''
. Very disappointing.

It's an extremely stressful and frustrating situation to be in when more could easily be done but it's not.

Do you know which group isn’t confused? Secondary school teachers. We can bloody well see the virus being transmitted in schools.
It’s not rocket science.

September;
"A head teacher has condemned colleagues for their “very misguided actions” in attending a party that led to a Covid-19 outbreak."

"Eight members of staff at Holy Trinity Stacksteads CE Primary School in Bacup, Lancashire, contracted coronavirus following a gathering at the home of an ex-colleague."

"Another three staff members, who did not attend the party, also later contracted Covid-19, forcing the school to close while pupils self-isolate."

www.itv.com/news/2020-09-17/covid-19-outbreak-at-school-pinned-on-teachers-party

@noblegiraffe

To be fair - I haven't posted on (or read) many of your school threads recently.

I know, that’s why I didn’t post it Clav, I kind of thought you’d left MN.

I am as confused and conflicted as everyone else regarding pupil transmission of the virus in schools.

Do you know which group isn’t confused? Secondary school teachers. We can bloody well see the virus being transmitted in schools. We can see the total inadequacy of sending home close contacts only. We can see kids coming in with symptoms. We can see kids being sent in after having a test and then being positive. We can see kids being off for a couple of days with covid symptoms then coming back in.

It’s not rocket science.

But according to figures published in Wales online, there have been more cases in primary school children than secondary school children in every health board in Wales.

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/coronavirus-cases-schools-wales-covid-19228666

ONE FUCKING PARTY CLAV.

There are hundreds of cases daily among the kids.....

How are you this thick?

Clav the head in that case admitted the staff hadn’t broken any rules and clearly that isn’t the reason for secondary children having the highest infection rate out of any age group.

Do you know which group isn’t confused? Secondary school teachers.

"Eight members of staff at Holy Trinity Stacksteads CE Primary School in Bacup, Lancashire, contracted coronavirus following a gathering at the home of an ex-colleague”

there have been more cases in primary school children than secondary school children in every health board in Wales.

I think that’s a misreading of the figures. I think that is the number of schools affected, and there are more primary schools than secondary schools. The percentage of secondary schools affected is higher than the percentage of primary schools affected in each area.

Yes I have and my point would still stand - there are plenty of secondary schools too which have had few/no cases. There are at least a couple I know of in our area.

You can post data as much as you want - it’s not going to change anything. It’s just tedious to see the same threads come up over and over again when I believe that the majority of those on here and certainly those not on Mumsnet want schools to stay open for both primary and secondary school pupils.

I think that is the number of schools affected, and there are more primary schools than secondary schools.

Sorry, having looked again, it is number of cases. The data really isn’t laid out very well. It suggests more outbreaks in secondary schools and more isolated cases in primaries.

@Crownofthorns

Yes I have and my point would still stand - there are plenty of secondary schools too which have had few/no cases. There are at least a couple I know of in our area.

You can post data as much as you want - it’s not going to change anything. It’s just tedious to see the same threads come up over and over again when I believe that the majority of those on here and certainly those not on Mumsnet want schools to stay open for both primary and secondary school pupils.

Tedious enough you link though AND take the time to post?

If you don't like the thread, you know where the door is.

Crown can you explain why exactly you have decided to believe that I want schools closed despite my many posts saying that I want them to stay open and me now telling you I want them to stay open?

Crown, I think it's a case of looking where we are now and what we face.

The seasons are agaisnt us. The weather has been mild and there are loads of outbreaks in schools. What will happen in literally freezing weather?
When the virus thrives, proper measures are not in place in schools, and there are many times where rooms are crowded, windows can't be opened, doors are shut... Etc.

What recipe are we mixing up here, a virus that thrives in the cold, spreads via transmission and talking, coughing, sneezing... And crowded classrooms..