Should we submit to the lockdown or fight back?

[pontypridd]

Just this.

I feel scared writing it. I know I'll be flamed.

But how long can people live like this for? I've lost so many family over the years - my mum too when I was young. We all get sick and die.

We can't lock up the whole world because of Covid. Are we just all going to submit? Or do we, should we fight for our freedom?

'understand this and agree to some extent. But surely someone who has depression or anxiety due to their own terminal illness or someone they love being made worse by Covid trumps the depression or anxiety caused by not being able to go to the pub or a non- essential shop. I don’t understand why the people who are against the rules believe their mental health is more important than those who are willing to accept the rules.'

Totally agree.

Also, Facetime, whatsapp, zoom email etc etc is no substitute for face to face socialising but it is better than nothing! Keeping in touch is the main thing so just do it, instead of wanging on that it isnt the same unless in Starbucks.

@Flutter12 Personally I don’t believe that any kind of (actual) mental health issues trunks any other kind. I do think that some of those who are anti lockdown are looking at the bigger picture, as in where are we in five years from now? Financially - because we are all going to have to pay for the covid related schemes for years to come, and in a worst case scenario services might not be funded at pre-Covid levels anymore - and health wise (undiagnosed cancers, heart conditions, mental health issues and so forth).

You weigh all the concerns above against the excess deaths of today, and a potentially overwhelmed nhs. It’s not about ‘not being able to go to the pub’ vs ‘dying of/spreading Covid’.

@TheKeatingFive

But Korea managed it.

South Korea have a very different attitude to data privacy and citizen rights to Western European.

The government can access your banking data, mobile phone data and all CCTV footage captured to track your movements. They can and do publish the geolocations of diagnosed Covid cases.

They have so many more tools at their disposal. It’s not comparing apples with apples in the slightest.

'But South Korea managed it' on a thread about civil liberties and covid is about as good as arguing 'But China managed it'.

I am concerned about civil liberties and covid but i also understand and recognise when a crisis has spun out of control to an extent where we dont necessarily have the luxury of liberty to the extent we should have. And that you have to be mindful of what battles to fight and crucially when to fight them otherwise you are ultimately working against your own interests anyway.

The bottom line is, the only way we are going to get back civil liberties is to deal with restrictions as best we can in the short term and THEN fight like hell when the moment of crisis has passed. We had moments to fight for liberties and to preserve the powers of Parliament over government earlier on, but this wasn't fully recognised nor understood by far too many.

My biggest beef with the op and many of those complaining about liberty is that they fail to understand what it is and how it works in normal times and only become interested when it stops them just doing whatever the fuck they like and screw everyone else.

If the doctors arent free to strike and are still expected in practice to carry on, then we've already crossed into the land of not having options about the erasure of civil liberties. And you have to understand the process and methods by which we can restore this.

Its not by screaming a bit like braveheart 'frreeeeedddddoooommm' only to get cut down in the suicidal utterly pointless charge that follows. As the saying goes 'Discretion is the better part of valor'.

Trunks = trumps. Apologies

@TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince

So what would you suggest Keating? Because the government are making a pike of shite of everything they do.

Dont be a fuckwit and make the situation worse than they've already made it?

"Are you sure the further destruction of our economy and curtailment of out freedom is going to have any effect and so be worth it?"

Are you sure it isn't?

And as to keeping us informed - that's what the slides were for on the announcement. Perhaps you'd like a seat in No.10 so you could fight back against these infringements of civil liberties that have been put in place to try and protect us?

What is your plan to prevent the death toll rising in the coming months, exactly?

Dont be a fuckwit and make the situation worse than they've already made it

Quite. Imagine where we’d be if the same energy was put into reducing the spread in spite of our leaderships dancing around popularity ratings.

I can completely understand how you feel.

I have no trust whatsoever in this government. They had months to fix testing, track and trace and to prepare for the winter. They did nothing.

To me it makes little sense to endlessly repeat full lockdowns without any other plan. What if there is no vaccine in the spring? what do you do then?

People seem to think you can only be a selfish covidiot or a saint who follows the rules to the letter.

That's a very dangerous place to be when debate is suppressed in this way.

There was an Oxford professor on the BBC yesterday stating that she was concern that lockdowns only achieve a temporary reprieve but do nothing to eradicate the virus long term. She stated that an effective track and trace and testing are needed, not just endless lockdowns, and that the sick and the vulnerable should be the one to shield, not the healthy population. That made perfect sense to me. Is an Oxford professor a covidiot too for saying this?

The NHS has been underfunded for years. The virus has only made that worse but politicians have a lot to answer for for neglecting it in this way.

People are losing their jobs, businesses are closing, mental health is declining, people are missing out on treatment and operations. That will cost lives too.

I am also fed up that we are showing predictions and stats that look very biased. I want to know the death stats by age groups and how many people who were not in the vulnerable category died.

I think Europe will see mass unrest by December if governments don't start planning beyond relying on damaging lockdowns. It is perfectly reasonable at some point to start challenging leaders who are losing control of the situation.

You can't fix the economy without fixing the health issue. The idea you can is a fallacy.

Not enough people are going to go to the pub or restuarants to keep them viable if there is a massive issue at hospitals. People will stay home out of fear anyway.

Its better to have a sharp harsh lockdown and have economic protections to try and to try to get to a situation where cases are low enough to be managed by other methods.

The lockdown argument is actually just as much an economic argument as a health one.

Agree with redtoothbrush

We've got freedom, we can speak freely.
We can go outside and to work and we have enough food.
It's a few restrictions to save many thousands of lives.

Requinblanc, but in the U.K. about 2/3 of the population support lockdown.

How could that lead to ‘massive unrest’? A bit maybe, but not massive.

Its a natural tragedy and lockdown is a sad necessity. How do you intend to fight back? Its a natural disaster like a hurricane... would you fight back against measures designed to keep people safe after that?
Yes its really shit and people will suffer... but people will die if we don't do anything. Maybe not you but peoples grandparents, people husbands, sometimes even peoples kids who have underlying health conditions. We do have to try our best to protect people. No one really wants this but it does look like its necessary. I have my own opinions about these lockdowns being done too late... everyone has opinions.. but its impossible to deny that something needs to be done we can't just let this run rampant because too many people will die, not just from covid but due to many things as medical resources will become swamped if cases continue to rise.
My husband works in the NHS and sees this first hand so I know this is a risk.

But it's not forever! There is a time limit and a vaccine in the coming months. Don't let people get sick and die unnecessarily for the sake of a few weeks.

It's dire. We are all suffering, it there is an end in sight. If there wasn't, I'd agree and say I'd rather get sick than live like this, but my poor mum? Do I infect her and let her die? She's only 69 but fit and active.

Redtoothbrush.

Live your clear analytical way of breaking things down. You say what my poor little brain is thinking, but so much clearer and more effectively!

Personally I don’t believe that any kind of (actual) mental health issues trunks any other kind. I do think that some of those who are anti lockdown are looking at the bigger picture, as in where are we in five years from now?

I feel it’s the complete opposite.
Many of those who are anti-lockdown are not looking at the bigger picture.

They are taking about people missing out on life-saving treatment but not realising that if the NHS is overrun with Covid related illnesses then these people won’t get that treatment anyway.
They are saying that mental health is affected whereas most mental health issues are made worse by the actual virus and how those trying to rebel against the rules are going to result in stricter rules.
They are saying about refusing to wear masks in shops - not thinking that if the shop workers get ill the shops will have to close due to lack of staff.

Yes there is an economical cost which every country in the world is experiencing - but what is the alternative?

[quote Branches1]@TheSandman Let’s check back in a couple of months to see how the Australian lockdown worked. Perhaps they simply kicked the can down the road?[/quote]
Don't be ridiculous. It's not comparable. Australia locked down its international borders early on - they didn't invite a couple of thousand soccer fans from an epicentre of the outbreak over, and they didn't allow people to zip in and out, go for holidays to countries with barely controlled outbreaks, and return with no proper quarantine facilities or self-isolating protocols enforced. Australia instigated a proper track and trace system; and enforced quarantines, and internal border closures. And while there were unfortunate blunders along the way, the messaging has been strong and consistent.

Australia (pop. 25-5 million) - Covid deaths, 907
UK (pop. 67 million) - Covid deaths, 46,555

Deffo OP! As long as it's not me or any of my family members or friends who die we should definitely fight back so we can socialise, go drinking and partying,.

//sarcasm

I agree with Flutter.

And yes the economy will struggle. But when the virus is nailed or goes (which it will) there will be a spending boom line no other.

@pontypridd

No. Sorry. I forgot. We don’t protest in the U.K. Not enough of us to ever make a difference.

We carry on passively and laugh at those that do have enough of a brain to question anything.

I don’t think anyone will be laughing at the end of this.

We protest when we feel outraged or angry. Like BLM or Brexit. I think with this issue you are in a tiny minority, a minority that includes David Icke. These measures, although difficult, are necessary for the benefit it of us all. I am sure you can do without a Costa, pub lunch or getting nails done for a month to SAVE LIVES.

I'm gonna fight back by putting pencils up my nose, pants on my head and run around shouting, wibble.

I think OP means fight the restrictions not the virus. The virus isn't going to go away we've just got to live with it. The government have lost all credibility. Bumbling Boris only wanted to get Brexit done.

Testing and cases are going up, but deaths are going down?

I think the government fucked everything up when they lied about what people were actually dying from

'Joe bloggs fatally injured by bus ... died of covid'

'John smith was terminally ill with cancer, died of covid'

And the ridiculous rules
Curfew at 10pm. Why?
Let's put kids in year group bubbles but then all mix on the school bus?
I can go to work with x amount of people but can't have a cuppa with my mother.

Idiotic people blaming the young for being spreaders 'they are being selfish and socialising blah blah blah' no Karen we are going to school, and work, like our marvellous government told us to, of course cases are going to go up when we go earn money to put a roof over our heads and feed our children.

FYI if you test a greater population the correlating factor is going to be that positive cases are going to increase.

Track and trace ... my days people go and watch the social dilemma on Netflix, it will make you never want to download an app again. No way will I give anyone access to where I am, what I'm doing and when. George Orwell's Big Brother at its finest and people are blindly complying to the UK becoming a nanny state.

People's mental health is suffering, the rate of suicide is increasing.

The country financially is going to be decimated, never mind the individual.

People that are high risk, shield and everyone else, wash hands, social distance etc. and just bloody carry on

More people die year on year from the flu and norovirus, but many more of us catch it and feel rough and recover. I could have norovirus give it someone else and potentially kill them.

There have always been pandemics.

Now I've got to rush out and get a new Hoover before non essential shops shut and corona gets me for wanting to clean my house. Oh and to buy a shit load of nappies, toilet roll and formula as I'm sure the panicking vultures are stripping the supermarket shelves as we speak.

Listen to Redtoothbrush.
That is the chore of the matter.

And the ridiculous rules
Curfew at 10pm. Why?
Let's put kids in year group bubbles but then all mix on the school bus?
I can go to work with x amount of people but can't have a cuppa with my mother.

I agree that some of the rules are laughable but there is no alternative.

Curfew at 10pm - This allows people to still have some freedoms but reduces the mass brawls on the street or parties, allowing police to deal with them and not overwhelming the NHS from alcohol related issues.
The alternative would be to restrict people going out at all.

Kids in bubbles - I agree and work in a school and think it’s ridiculous. We make ours sit in the same seats on the school buses but this can’t be done for every school.
The only alternative would be to close schools.

Working with people but not seeing your mum - again I agree but what’s the alternative? Just not go to work?

@MrsMarrio, I agree with some of your assessments of things that are very wrong right now but I don’t follow the logic that concludes restrictions are pointless.

This is ‘living with covid’, what your advocating is largely ignoring it.

Protecting the vulnerable isn’t realistically possible (unless we ship them off to New Zealand maybe?) because society has to interact. Even if you’re not taking into account the vulnerable who are valuable active members of the economy, many of the most vulnerable have to have interactions because they need physical people to support them.

There are threads on here if you care to look for them that have discussed this at length and the conclusion is that those vulnerable to covid encompasses a huge proportion of people who are barely over 45/50 and have skills we need. These are the same people who put the health infrastructure at risk of collapse.

There are a huge percentage of elderly and frail in hospital right now but the rest is made up of a not insignificant proportion of working age people.