Should we submit to the lockdown or fight back?

[pontypridd]

Just this.

I feel scared writing it. I know I'll be flamed.

But how long can people live like this for? I've lost so many family over the years - my mum too when I was young. We all get sick and die.

We can't lock up the whole world because of Covid. Are we just all going to submit? Or do we, should we fight for our freedom?

'have severe mental health issues with anxiety. Most people with anxiety are risk averse. I felt so bloody safe in lockdown. My anxiety got out of control when the figures started rising again. I’m so weary of being scared all the time. Lockdown is a relief for me'

Yes, it is the people who can’t meet pals in the pub, seemingly can't function without dinner parties that rattle my cage.

@Fancycrackers

Funny interpretation of things if you think the lockdown is something to "fight against".

The irony is that the longer you and other people like you resist measures to prevent the spread of the virus, the longer we'll all have to comply with crude measures like national lockdowns. Don't you understand that? Do you also want to "fight against" mask wearing?

THIS!

Over and over and over again.

Until it finally sinks in that it is people with your mindset @pontypridd that are the cause of a second lockdown and probably a third....

@BelleSausage

If I have to go to work everyday and stand in huge groups of other people’s kids with no mask wearing or social distancing then you can stop socialising for a month.

Do fuck off.

Yes, this. You are absolutely right.

This probably will last for more than 4 weeks. But if enough people follow the rules, and if it gets extended but to less than eight weeks, then I am hopeful that rules can be relaxed enough to let families spend time together at Christmas without the risks being too high. Numbers will need to remain limited to avoid big superspreading events at New Year’s.

In terms of how to fight back, there are two fights. One against the virus. The other against this government’s complete lack of compassion, integrity and competence.

For the first fight, against the virus, distance, ventilation, masks, hand hygiene, and patience while treatments and vaccines are developed, are the best and only tools that we have. This feels like it is going on and on forever, but I am convinced that it is temporary. I am very hopeful that we will have better treatments and at least partially effective vaccines well before Christmas 2021. If we can get the mortality rate down from 0.5%-1.0% to a tenth of that, and do the same with the rate of serious illness which could well be as high as 5%, then that will be good enough to get most of the way back towards “normal”, especially if we also get a new government that is willing to invest in schools and in our healthcare system.

For the second fight, regarding this government, it is very simple: we need to vote the bums out. In the next election, despite the frequent vilification of private enterprise by the Labour party, and despite my being a high earner who already paid a nearly 45% effective tax rate but will see my savings literally decimated by a Labour government, I will be voting Labour. The vote is a blunt and imperfect instrument in a two-party system, but it is really all we have, of course alongside letters to newspapers and postings on random internet boards...

I’ll be fighting back in the only way I can until
Someone thinks of something better. By continuing to live as I did before this total nonsense.

@Toptotoeunicolour

The virus is what you have to fight, not the government. The government are only making rules because a smallish proportion of people are too stupid to understand how they should fight the virus. Because those people need rules to tell them how to behave, we all have them.

You can’t fight a virus. All you can do is hide from it. And then day you can either hide no longer or it has gone away.

There are no signs yet that it is going away.

I’m against the fact that BJ does everything too late to have any effect

I’m not defending BJ, but surely that’s because he’s actually quite similar to you? He’d rather preserve personal freedoms at all costs and avoid introducing curbs unless there’s absolutely no alternative.

I’m against the fact that there is no long term or even short term plan
Nobody can predict what this virus is going to do. The plan is to keep hospital admissions at a manageable level, which can only be achieved if people follow the guidance.

The public are treated like children/ just told what not to do with no rhyme or reason
Come on, no they aren’t. If you weren’t up to speed with what’s happening in our hospitals at the moment did you not at least see all the slides presented by Whitty yesterday to explain this?

I hate that we’re back in this position as much as the next person bit what is the alternative?

Yes, test & trace can be improved, but remind yourself of the high numbers of people refusing to isolate when asked!
Yes we can increase testing, but this also relies on people recognising when the have potential symptoms instead of brushing them off.

We are where we are right now, but yet nobody expressing disquiet about the lockdown has offered a viable alternative.

@nicky7654

I agree so rediculous having a lock down. It won't change a thing. People are dying from not getting cancer treatment or heart ops etc , need to focus on these people instead of shutting shops!

That is kind of the point... How will people get cancer treatments or heart ops if the hospitals are full of Covid patients?

'My thoughts are that over 65s are isolated, as are people with underlying health conditions. We look after these people by providing food and care within our communities, and do this until a vaccine is found. The rest of the population go about life as normal'

With respect, that is bollocks. That is pretty much what people have been doing and look where it has got us. ICUs are full, where will people go if they have a road traffic accident, if they have any myriad of serious health issues that require critical care?!

People need to be told to stay at home becaue the rule of 6 etc hasnt worked as many just flout rules.

@HomerRoberts - totally agree you!

@BlackPetunia

What does ‘fighting back’ look like here?

Breaking into a pub to pull yourself a pint?

Sorry, but this gave me a laugh.

There was an amazing doctor in TV yesterday. Something to do with the NHS. She was saying the way through this is not to lock down.

But to do effective track and trace and quarantining. And paying people to quarantine would make all the difference.

I would trust and listen to Chris Whitty's views about what we should do before I'd trust or listen to Piers Corbyn and his anarchist mates -who would have us in the streets protesting while they know extremist groups are just waiting to start riots, looting, burning, destroying and trying to breakdown the structure of society.

You want to be part of that do you OP? Because that is where your 'we should all rebel and protest and not do it' stance will end up.

I agree OP completely.

It is quite clear to me now how Hitler managed to do what he did.

It’s like 2020 is year zero and nothing we knew before this year has any relevance at all.

We aren't locking the whole world down though are we .
I know you can't please everyone and some think it should be a full lockdown but it's basically work and school.
You can still exercise there is none of those ridiculous rules on how long you can be outside although it is November so I expect there was no need too .
Yes it's depressing yes it's shit but I think we can all agree something had to be done .

If you weren’t up to speed with what’s happening in our hospitals at the moment did you not at least see all the slides presented by Whitty yesterday to explain this?

Homer Now you see I loved the slides , apart from the cut-off y-axes and titles on the BBC coverage . I’m rarely happier than when surrounded by data, pretty graphs and diagrams (at work - not a complete saddo). But normal people are completely turned off by them. Whitty et.al. need to work on their communication.

@throwaway100000

It’s only a month? Don’t get me wrong, I hated the last lockdown but this one is a bit more relaxed in comparison

They say it's only a month. Not a chance this will end in a month. Remember March was 4 weeks to flatten the curve and went on until July

Boris is not my favourite person and I think he’s made a lot of mistakes. But I thought he spoke well last night about the risks of what could happen in hospitals if we don’t do this: hospitals deciding which patients to treat because there isn’t space for everyone who could need it.
I don’t worry about my children being ill from covid, but if they needed urgent hospital treatment for something else - a car accident, a different illness - I’d very much like there to be space. By making sure the hospitals are not full of covid patients, we make sure there are resources to treat people with other issues.
This is the whole point. Anyone who is still saying it’s not needed, did you actually watch last night and listen to the reasons why it’s needed? Maybe have a look if you didn’t.

@TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince

There was an amazing doctor in TV yesterday. Something to do with the NHS. She was saying the way through this is not to lock down.

But to do effective track and trace and quarantining. And paying people to quarantine would make all the difference.

I would agree with that doctors stance, problem is our government have fucked that up so now we’re in a situation that’s not enough and we need to do something more drastic to get back to a level that’s a realistic option.

We closed to save the NHS on 23rd March. In response to that suppirt the NHS has failed to properly reopen. Just re my family:

DD's MH unit is closed. No video calls, no face to face - Just a phone call and a date and it takes place between 9 and 5 not even a timed slot. All admin staff at home; there is a recorded msg advising people to phone the main switchboard. They haven't even bothered to update the website.

Step: needs cataract op and has been told can't now have it because the cataracts have to be 70% rather than 50% - he has list confidence driving. He asked at the apt what if he went private; the consultant responded £5k and I can do it Friday!

So fine let's lock down but I expect every HCP to be going above and beyond to fulfil the full range of their duties and obligations while we do. If the general public are curtailed for the NHS I expect every one of them to be at work, doing everything they are paid to do.

Who runs this country: Boris Johnson or Sir Simon Stephens?

@Newdonewhugh

I’ll be fighting back in the only way I can until Someone thinks of something better. By continuing to live as I did before this total nonsense.

I hope you have an ACP in place which clearly states your refusal of hospital admission/ventilation if you develop ARDS secondary to COVID?

Submit. I'd rather anyone who needs medical attention gets it. But I understand I'm lucky as I can wfh.

I’m with you OP

@TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince it’s not just because people can’t go without dinner parties. It is the massive anxiety and depression that comes from severe financial concerns - not all of us qualify for furlough pay! We also worry about the bigger picture - who is going to pay for all the government borrowing which is funding the Covid measures? The future looks very bleak for all of us, we will be paying for this for a long time.

We might have a house full of anxious and worried children - our GP told us that she is very worried about mental health problems in the children she sees. Insomnia, anxiety and depression are rampant amongst children.

My friend had to attend her mother’s funeral via zoom due to Covid. The mother died alone. This was utterly heartbreaking.

People with anxiety maybe risk averse but there are all sorts of risks out there! The risk to your livelihood and your children’s overall happiness and wellbeing is not insignificant, it is all encompassing and incredibly stressful!!!

nicky7654
I agree so rediculous having a lock down. It won't change a thing. People are dying from not getting cancer treatment or heart ops etc , need to focus on these people instead of shutting shops!

I got treatment during lockdown. I was also admitted to A&E during lockdown.

I would say I got a better deal than before lockdown because the rooms and staff weren’t overworked or physically abused due to drunken idiots having their stomach pumped, getting into fights or car crashes.
Which puts a massive strain on the NHS and more money is spent of alcohol related treatment than cancer and heart ops etc.

But instead of being concerned about these real issues you are more concerned about them shutting shops! Which shows you don’t actually care about cancer patients at all as if you did you would be more worried about protecting them from the virus over a few shops closing!

The comments on this thread are refreshing. There were so many threads in sep about 'civil liberties' and 'dictatorships', some suggesting that although infections rocketed hospital admissions and deaths hadn'tl Seeming to not grasp the few weeks delay until people become really sick then die.

I hope rather than people like the op and the childish 'fight back' mentality people will now just do the right thing. Forget pubs and holidays and just try to grit our teeth and get on with it.

'My friend had to attend her mother’s funeral via zoom due to Covid. The mother died alone. This was utterly heartbreaking.'

Why, we can attend funerals? Tragic that her mother died alone but she shouldn't have. There are exceptions in place when a relative is dying.