Should we submit to the lockdown or fight back?

[pontypridd]

Just this.

I feel scared writing it. I know I'll be flamed.

But how long can people live like this for? I've lost so many family over the years - my mum too when I was young. We all get sick and die.

We can't lock up the whole world because of Covid. Are we just all going to submit? Or do we, should we fight for our freedom?

Need a MN break too. Dislike the human race. I dont understand when people became so weak. I'm talking about those who are simply in a huff because they can't meet with others or go shopping or on holiday. Then use poor mental health as an excuse when all they mean is that they feel upset that they are now inconvenienced, making a mockery of real mental health issues.

I agree!
Imagine living somewhere like Africa or India where you’re at risk of things like malaria, Cholera and HIV everyday and then add on a new virus that is spread by indirect contact and they don’t have the luxury of getting welfare or NHS treatment and add that to their own mental health issues.
In this country we don’t have any of the same worries as they do but we have people moaning because they can’t go to the pub or on holiday as freely as they once did.
It’s embarrassing!

Cheers OP crack on as long as you sign waiver that neither you or any of your nearest and dearest will require a hospital bed if they catch covid or need any other treatment. Its a bit of a pain but not really that difficult.

Short terms though what I have just said does not help those people who cannot open their businesses or afford to feed their families etc.

The government need to know that they don't have the public's support in order for it to stop but unfortunately too many of the public have been falling for the scare mongering and exaggerations.

Stop using that God awful, dismissive phrase 'Suck it up'. Very easy for you to say.

I totally agree with you OP. But in order to "fight" back all you need to do is disregard the so called "rules". See who you want when you want and don't wear a mask. No need to "fight" just live your life.

It all stops when we say no

Nobody is forcing you to wear a mask!

If you don’t want to wear one then don’t but you will just be refused entry on public transport and shops.

I agree OP. And I really really resent anyone saying that it’s only idiots or people who don’t think they’ll get Covid who think this. I have a first in science from Oxbridge so am somewhat qualified to understand, plus work with statistics every day. People need to appreciate “the science” is just a predictive model, you change one assumption in the model and the outcome looks completely different. There are a number of leading scientists that completely believe the prevention is now worse than the cure and that lockdowns are not achieving much and causing huge damage - look at the Barrington Declaration.

I think if the last six months had been used to massively increase medical capacity, including training loads of auxiliary nurses and getting lots of ventilators, opening more hospitals I’d be more supportive, as the limiting factor is hospital beds. But apart from the nightingale hospitals opened at the beginning I’m not aware much has been done since May to increase capacity, so I’m not sure how we’ll avoid further lockdowns. To me, spending a fraction of the money we’ve spent propping up the economy on massively boosting the nhs would have made sense.

And in terms of overall deaths, once you adjust for age, this year is nothing out of the normal death rate so people really shouldn’t be panicking - if we reported flu like we do Covid every year people would be terrified by the deaths too, it’s quite a media frenzy. www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54712917

I’m also astonished there haven’t been more riots or protests, I think a lot of people don’t want to be associated with the 5G lunatics. There’s no obvious leading figure for people who isn’t a conspiracy theorist.

To the OP
I agree, not that I would fight exactly... there’s a freedom march here in November, but I won’t be going.
More people die from cancer every day than this virus. What irritates me is the Government have no real idea who has had it and who hasn’t. Some people don’t get sick, some do but haven’t been tested. Where are those stats? Surely sooner or later, everyone will have been exposed, no matter all the lockdowns. It just prevents the masses being exposed all at once.
We’ve only ever eradicated one virus, so how much longer will this go on for! I think it’s a real shit show now. Now there’s long covid to worry about....
They don’t know enough about this virus or where it came from. It’s gone very quiet on that front?
As much as I don’t want schools to shut, it’s clearly schools and Uni’s spreading it (mostly). We’re going to have a double dip recession after this, the future is absolutely dire.
At this point I would be willing to take my chances with the virus and go back to normal (Yes, I’d happily waive my rights to NHS treatment).
Wonder how many others would....

Now doubt people will disagree, this is just my opinion and everyone is entitled to theirs.

'at the peak last time there were nurses in empty wards with nothing to do!! Hardly under strain'

Because all routine, elective stuff was paused. This time they are trying to keep as much going as possible.

People need to accept that this isn't the government 'punishing' us. This is a proportionate response to ensure that say, you break a leg or have a stroke there just might be capacity in the nhs to treat you.

Stop being selfish, stop being dramatic just follow the guidelines and try to keep the spread manageable.

There are very strong views on all sides. I have opposed all the mandatory laws sine March but have followed them as I want to live in a country where people are largely law abiding. You are allowed peaceful protest under current CV laws in England. I agree it is important the state knows how many people d not support our putting the old before the young and do not support the greater harm that is done by lockdown than in letting the scheme be voluntary.

However if you feel really cross about it it will be better for you personally if you go and watch a film or play with the cat or just never watch the news and find a lot of things you still are allowed to do.

The virus is what you have to fight, not the government. The government are only making rules because a smallish proportion of people are too stupid to understand how they should fight the virus. Because those people need rules to tell them how to behave, we all have them.

Death is a bit permanent but even if you survive CV19, what are the long term health implications? Long COVID?

What is not helping IMHO, is people partying the night before lock down 😳

Head, bash, brick wall and people wonder why the R number is going up

[quote Remmy123]@GreatBigBeautifulTommorow at the peak last time there were nurses in empty wards with nothing to do!! Hardly under strain

Some were on here saying not to clap for them because there weren't doing anything!![/quote]
Do you have first hand experience of this? Rather than someone on the internet said? I can assure you this wasn’t the case in our local trust or many other trusts.

'I dont understand when people became so weak. I'm talking about those who are simply in a huff because they can't meet with others or go shopping or on holiday. Then use poor mental health as an excuse when all they mean is that they feel upset that they are now inconvenienced, making a mockery of real mental health issues.'

Exactly.

Long Covid isn't a proven thing, what with this being a new virus.

For those of you who are saying crack on OP but don’t expect a hospital bed if you become ill, have you never had a drink, a cigarette, eaten unhealthy food, driven a car, crossed a road? Because they are all risky behaviours so by your logic if you’ve done any of them you also don’t deserve to be treated in hospital.

@Iheartmysmart

For those of you who are saying crack on OP but don’t expect a hospital bed if you become ill, have you never had a drink, a cigarette, eaten unhealthy food, driven a car, crossed a road? Because they are all risky behaviours so by your logic if you’ve done any of them you also don’t deserve to be treated in hospital.

All of those behaviours are not contagious with potential to spread to others.

@pontypridd

I’m against the fact that BJ does everything too late to have any effect.

I’m against the fact that there is no long term or even short term plan.

The public are treated like children/ just told what not to do with no rhyme or reason.

If this was being done with planning and purpose and we were being treated with respect like NZ say - I’d support this Lockdown.

OP I completely agree with your assessment of our excuse for a PM. My job gives me a ringside view of the utter incompetence, lack of leadership, and incoherent approach to all of this. I am worried about the government’s overreach in law making. I miss my DS, DIL and DGS terribly. I want to hug my mum and my dad, and my best friend whose mum has just died (not Covid). I am beyond angry, and very, very tired.

But if we allow that anger to cloud our judgment and refuse to limit our social contacts, the virus will infect more and more people, our hospitals will be overrun (Liverpool already is) and there will be no capacity to care for anyone except the critically ill.

And once all the makeshift ICU beds are full, and once we run out of ICU medicines, decisions will need to be made about who (Covid and non-Covid) will be left to die.

This is not a story made up by Johnson - on the contrary, he’s been denying this risk for weeks - but facts presented by scientific advisors. And if you don’t much like SAGE because they are an official body, try Indy SAGE and ask yourself what possible motivation they could have for advising stringent measures to control the virus while we wait for a vaccine and better treatments, other than wanting to minimise the direct and indirect effects of Covid.

Ironically, the fact that treatments have already improved is going to cause a problem. People who would have died quickly and freed up beds will now survive and “block” a bed while recovering. Quite a nice problem in the scheme of things, but still a problem.

@pontypridd
Can I ask why, in your opinion, this government (and those of many, many other countries) have chosen to basically tank their economies, get into debt, be responsible for providing financial help to a significant proportion of their population, risk the rage of the population (riots in some countries, tutting and grumbling in this one) etc etc, rather than just let the virus do its thing and accept it? Sort of a "survival of the fittest" thing. God knows governments tend see the vulnerable as a burden and I honestly can't see them losing too much sleep over us!

Because it doesn't really sound like things governments would choose to do unless not doing it would result in a far worse situation, does it?

So, why do you think so many governments have done it ?

What's your take on what has pretty much been a world wide shut down at various points in the year?

'The virus is what you have to fight, not the government. The government are only making rules because a smallish proportion of people are too stupid to understand how they should fight the virus. Because those people need rules to tell them how to behave, we all have them'

Yes if only people put as much energy into social distancing as they do into attacking Government.

We are in the same situation as many other countries. Just be grateful Drakeford isn't in charge making books and stationery forbidden purchases.

Such short sighted opinions from a few. Total knobs not thinking past their own doorstep.

I cannot bear Boris and his party, listening to him last night set my teeth on edge BUT the alternative to following his rules are thousands dead PER DAY, hospitals full to the rafters with not enough beds let alone ventilators and schools closing due to sick staff. Or do you think he and the scientists are lying/exaggerating? To what end?
What is your proposal for dealing with these scenarios @pontypridd?
Lockdowns cost the government a ridiculous amount of money, what do they have to gain from it? It's obviously a last resort situation we find ourselves in.

@pontypridd are you inciting civil disobedience on a public forum?

@pontypridd

If you had a crystal ball and you were dead in say 6 month's time because of Covid, would you still want to 'fight' now?

Similarly, if due to your 'fighting' someone died because they caught it from you, would you care? How would you feel?

Let's say it was a 70 year old?
Let's say it was a 10 year old with asthma?

Have you thought of the above or do you think Covid doesn't and will never apply to you?

‘Need a MN break too. Dislike the human race. I dont understand when people became so weak. I'm talking about those who are simply in a huff because they can't meet with others or go shopping or on holiday. Then use poor mental health as an excuse when all they mean is that they feel upset that they are now inconvenienced, making a mockery of real mental health issues.

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

I have severe mental health issues with anxiety. Most people with anxiety are risk averse. I felt so bloody safe in lockdown. My anxiety got out of control when the figures started rising again. I’m so weary of being scared all the time. Lockdown is a relief for me.

And yet every thread is full of people who ‘can’t cope with lockdown’ like their mental health trumps evryone else’s.

I would say most people with longstanding anxiety mental health issues feel safer in lockdown

I agree so rediculous having a lock down. It won't change a thing. People are dying from not getting cancer treatment or heart ops etc , need to focus on these people instead of shutting shops!

My thoughts are that over 65s are isolated, as are people with underlying health conditions. We look after these people by providing food and care within our communities, and do this until a vaccine is found. The rest of the population go about life as normal - obviously you may get 1 person under 65 out of a thousand who might buck the trend and die, but this is going to be rare. However, the above isn’t going to happen, so I’m following the rules in place as I may be wrong, and the government right, so I want to 100% stick with the rules to get us all through this. This isn’t a time to play power games - just lets all do what we need to do to get the country back to some sort of normality.