Secondary schools are fucked

[noblegiraffe]

The latest ONS data for infection rates in pupils in Y7-11 shows that they are now nearly as high for university students, the ones who were getting blamed for catching it at pubs and parties.

The latest data for number of cases per 100,000 in each year group looks alarming, even more so when you realise that the latest column is an underestimate. The figures for Y11 in particular are horrendous, and this is a crucial exam year group.

Attendance data for secondary schools is going down each week - 82% according to the latest data (excluding those on half term).

On 22nd October an estimated 557,000 pupils were off school, either isolating, or with covid (this includes primaries, I can't see the data for just secondaries).

On 22nd October, 55% of secondary schools had at least 1 pupil self-isolating due to contact with a case in school.

There is, as far as a I can see, no discussion from those in charge about what to do about this. Schools are a priority, except when it comes to talking about them. Data is hidden, covered up or just ignored. People use arguments about primary schools (parents need to work!) to apply to all ages of pupil.

Secondary schools were set up with 'bubbles'. Risk assessments were based on premise that bubbles would be mixing, and would be sent home if there were cases. This was abandoned a few weeks into term when the DfE elbowed PHE out of the way and took over the the decisions about who would be sent home. Now only 'close contacts' are sent home rather than whole bubbles, which makes no sense in the context of what we know about covid transmission in poorly ventilated spaces with no social distancing. Kids who were told that they could mix 'because they were in a bubble' are now wondering why they're in a bubble but not in a bubble in any meaningful sense.

If, when it comes to any upcoming lockdown, the message is 'schools will stay open' and there is no distinguishing between primary and secondary, and no discussion about how this trend in secondary can be addressed, then be aware that any lockdown isn't going to solve the problem because it's spreading in secondary schools.

PS: I don't want schools to close but they shouldn't stay open as they are because the data shows there's a real problem with as they are. I do want a discussion about specifically secondary so talk about primary elsewhere. If you find the data scary then that's a problem with the situation, not me posting it. I don't want any anecdotes about how your school hasn't had any cases unless you put the word 'yet' at the end of it. If your school has masks everywhere that's great for your school, but the government says their use should be avoided in classrooms and their use in corridors is only mandated in lockdown areas. Schools are not all open in Europe.

Some suggestions: masks, ventilation, review of who is being sent home, regular testing (especially if there are cases), review of fines for pupils who would be safer at home, review of working conditions for ECV teachers, it to be made clear that if a school sends your child home they are legally required to isolate.

That sounds very stressful. I don’t know how exactly DS’s were set up and they did vary a bit in how effective with a couple not being streamed.

He said it got tricky sometimes when the teacher tried to involve him. I should ask whether he feels the week he missed impacted on his tests now he has some results. On the college Facebook page the comments from parents were positive so think it has generally gone well. They practiced a lot over the summer term though so were well prepared.

I don't think anyone wants to see students out of school, but despite the best efforts of many brilliant Heads and Senior Leaders, secondary schools need to close.

TheSunisStillShining - This does sound frustrating. At the risk of making excuses, this is a way of teaching that is new and will, hopefully, improve...

I have adapted lessons so all the teaching is at the beginning, and then remote students can leave and get on with their work. At this point, I mute my Mic, stop sharing my screen but keep the connection open so that they can message me with questions; however, they know that it isn't always possible for me to respond in time. I send out any resources in advance so they are to hand. Once I know that I have a number of lessons in a row where my class will be split between some in school and some at home, I adapt my teaching so that their learning becomes a mix of prerecorded videos, written instructions or live lessons. They upload pictures etc of their work so I can keep an eye on their engagement.

So far, the response from my tinies in KS3 and biggies in KS4 has been positive, but it isn't perfect. As you pointed out, the teacher has to stay at their desk in order to be heard, and I do feel I am multitasking like a mad woman! I also have to remember not to mutter to myself whilst teaching..

Read this about the transmission rates in classrooms t.co/niG5TanOZe?amp=1

@FoolsAssassin
It's very diff for a week and for a longer term.

One main issue is that in school kids are getting bite sized info chunks drip fed to them. They chew, spit out things and re-discuss... Which is great normally. And if you are isolating for a week then it's not a big deal.

What I proposed to the school is that I'd like to get the syllabus for all courses and that son shouldn't have to attend online classes (unless set up properly, there is 1 teacher who is wonderful), but would be marked on homework and maybe tests/gmeet 1-1 discussions with teachers so they can gauge his understanding.

Now, I have proposed this and told them that in between the 2 of us with my H we can cover the curr. at this level (y10). We have enough diplomas, knowledge and curiosity to manage at a bit more than basic level. After all there are the textbooks that cover everything. and the internet.

They pushed for attendance in sept, but I pushed back and we started home learning based on some educated guesses of what they will be doing in school. He had to do all homework on time, which he did. HE generally got 70-90% on marks, depending on subject.
It wasn;t ideal and we had issues that needed sorting out, but we were on track and making progress across the board.

Then at the end of sept school started enforcing online attendance in the name of administration: if LA comes and wants to fine this will prove that he was "in school". I went along because it seemed reasonable. But in almost only a week things went downhill quickly. He didn't have the time to study as he was waiting on gmeets to be started. Couldn't participate, but couldn't go at his own pace either.... And he is letting his frustrations out on us which doesn't make for a happy family life.

So I'm pissed to say the least.
(and on top: we pay huge amount for this shit. we are okay to pay to keep the place as we see the future value, but pls. let us progress even if you are not willing to help.)

It just astounds me that anyone thought schools wouldn’t result n this happening - it’s a pathogen, that’s more communicable than flu, and is airborne...there was less chance of the sun rising on Jan 1st than the rona being selective about who it infected.

@Piggywaspushed

Sadly, they see running full (almost all completely unaltered content wise) GCSE and A level exams (and SATS and phonic tests) as their hill to die on tree

Ex-headteacher here. I was saying back in the original lockdown that the DfE needed to instruct the exam boards to set up school-based assessments (sort of mini exams done in class, using smartboards to supply exam questions on the day) for this current year.

I could've told them exactly how to do it (as could any teacher, to be honest) and it would have (a) meant children had proper assessment data lodged with the boards in case of end of course exams being cancelled) (b) provided additional data to final exams if they could take place after all.

WHY they haven't done something of this ilk I cannot imagine. Putting all their eggs in the 'end of course final exams' basked again was foolish, given what we knew already back then.

@MrsDanvers123

TheSunisStillShining - This does sound frustrating. At the risk of making excuses, this is a way of teaching that is new and will, hopefully, improve...

I have adapted lessons so all the teaching is at the beginning, and then remote students can leave and get on with their work. At this point, I mute my Mic, stop sharing my screen but keep the connection open so that they can message me with questions; however, they know that it isn't always possible for me to respond in time. I send out any resources in advance so they are to hand. Once I know that I have a number of lessons in a row where my class will be split between some in school and some at home, I adapt my teaching so that their learning becomes a mix of prerecorded videos, written instructions or live lessons. They upload pictures etc of their work so I can keep an eye on their engagement.

So far, the response from my tinies in KS3 and biggies in KS4 has been positive, but it isn't perfect. As you pointed out, the teacher has to stay at their desk in order to be heard, and I do feel I am multitasking like a mad woman! I also have to remember not to mutter to myself whilst teaching..

Funny thing is that the summer full online term was great! I proposed a solution that would put the least amount of pressure and extra work on teachers as I know they are madly overwhelmed. We're in a position where we are actually fine to do the teaching at home. I used to teach in a classroom (20 yrs ago) and I have been doing online workshops for years. So I am not talking from my arse and know a lot about both education and online engagements.

I adapt my teaching so that their learning becomes a mix of prerecorded videos, written instructions or live lessons.
This is key. But it also adds extra workload. I genuinely think that this hill to die on attitude was a big mistake as it didn't really encourage teachers to re-think/rework their materials. I also don't see much help being given to teachers to help them adapt. They would need guidance:

• how to set up - technical issues are still a thing
• how to organize material
• there are so many materials done already, but they should be organized, coordinated,... the TUs should have been focusing on these.

In Ireland school are rarely reported on. It's literally radio silence and yet everyone I talk to with kids in secondary ate gettemails to say theres been a positive case. We've had seven in my sons school (there's nearly 800 in the school) 2 separate cases in his year, got an email saying son was not a close contact and dh was going mad saying how do they know he wasn't queuing next to them somewhere etc. I amnt a teacher and can't give them what schools do but this is literally killing me, I send him In every morning feeling sick and it's all I think about.

@stayathomer
I understand your dh. My dh had the same argument hence our son staying home. Thankfully our LA issued a statement that there will be no fines for absences like this. Silver lining...

@stayathomer

In Ireland school are rarely reported on. It's literally radio silence and yet everyone I talk to with kids in secondary ate gettemails to say theres been a positive case. We've had seven in my sons school (there's nearly 800 in the school) 2 separate cases in his year, got an email saying son was not a close contact and dh was going mad saying how do they know he wasn't queuing next to them somewhere etc. I amnt a teacher and can't give them what schools do but this is literally killing me, I send him In every morning feeling sick and it's all I think about.

Take him out. I think I'll be going down that road soon. I'm a secondary teacher btw.

From the OP: Some suggestions: masks, ventilation, review of who is being sent home, regular testing (especially if there are cases), review of fines for pupils who would be safer at home, review of working conditions for ECV teachers, it to be made clear that if a school sends your child home they are legally required to isolate.

I work in a (private secondary) school and my children attend a (massive state secondary) school. We are doing these things in both schools. Since the start of term in September we have literally only had one or two confirmed positive cases in each school. (Obviously there may well have been loads of asymptomatic cases but nobody would know about those). @noblegiraffe I know you don't want to hear about "anecdata" such as mine BUT it proves your point so please bear with me!

In our 2 secondary schools:

• Children with coughs etc are isolated in a specific room in each school, masked, and sent home PDQ.
• All windows are open.
• Staggered start and finish times.
• Different entrances.
• Loads of sinks and sanitiser everywhere (interestingly, both schools have done this - I have no idea where the comp got the money from, but they have managed it).
• Staggered break and lunch times.
• Masks masks masks (despite what the stupid government guidance says). Masks everywhere except when sitting down in a classroom or sitting down to eat (and see below re masks in classrooms).
• Private schools obviously don't issue fines for non-attendance anyway; the comp isn't counting covid-related isolation / illness in its absence figures.
• The private school has all lessons available to dial in via zoom if a student is self-isolating.
• The comp is teaching the Sixth Form remotely via MS Teams in the afternoons, so clearly remote learning CAN be done in the state secondary sector. I've listened to some of my DC's lessons and they have been amazing.
• ECV teachers in both schools have been given the option to work remotely, supporting students who are self-isolating.
• increased mental health support for staff.

We have had a case (in the comp) where a parent sent in a child who was waiting for the results of a Covid test . This being a secondary school, where the students are old enough to take responsibility for these things, it only took about five minutes for literally tens of students to report this to their teachers, and the child was promptly isolated, masked, and sent home again.

The government guidelines for schools are ridiculous, and it is possible to go against them in order to make a school as Covid-secure as possible, but it comes down to extremely firm leadership and parental support. Our Head (the one in the state comprehensive) faced a huge backlash from parents at the start of term when he mandated facemarks EVERYWHERE in school for the first two weeks, including in lessons. But he stuck to his guns. And I can quite see that in a lot of schools / communities it won't be possible to do this.

That said - the only way to make schools (and anywhere else tbh) fully Covid-secure is to close them! And, despite not wanting children to miss any more education, I fear that we are now in a position where not closing the schools is simply going to prolong this agony for everyone

TheSunIsStillShinining very good point about a week v long term. I was interested as it had been a huge help when we had to isolate. Also my DS is 6th form so has 8 teachers and fairly small classes which I think helped. Am sure DS would feel differently if it were a longer term situation.

I see with all the attached studies the majoirty of infections were as a result of groups of adults gathering.... "Schools only account for 6% of coronavirus outbreaks recorded by Spanish health authorities" ..... 94% of transmissions were social gatherings of adults.

It was also interesting to see that this 6% could be reduced by increasing ventilation in the class room....

Schools don't appear to be the major contributor to spread following all of the studies covering a wide range of settings and situations.

My prediction is that GCSEs and A Levels will either be reformed or scrapped completely and won’t be back. It’s about time we had a shake up of education system. We are the only country that puts our children through TWO lots of public exams. Terrible effect on mental health.

Our local 2 large secondaries have been brilliant. There was 1 single case in one school and the bubble immediately shut down. No other students were infected. They have been excellent with mask wearing and one way systems and hygiene (which is difficult but they are on top of it).

They have worked over and above. The biggest infection nearby was the local university! The adult students partied, infected each other but it didn't spread to the wider community the university really took hold of the behaviour to help limit spread from their students.

It can and does work to follow guidelines if everyone works together. Sadly, as can be seen on MN's with the 'I'm not following the rules' brigade there are some that cannot be bothered and then moan when locked down.

Schools don't appear to be the major contributor to spread following all of the studies covering a wide range of settings and situations.

That does seem to be right.

Of course if we shut everything apart from schools they will become the main source of transmission as there is no other way for the virus to spread.

@MrsSpenserGregson

From the OP: Some suggestions: masks, ventilation, review of who is being sent home, regular testing (especially if there are cases), review of fines for pupils who would be safer at home, review of working conditions for ECV teachers, it to be made clear that if a school sends your child home they are legally required to isolate.

I work in a (private secondary) school and my children attend a (massive state secondary) school. We are doing these things in both schools. Since the start of term in September we have literally only had one or two confirmed positive cases in each school. (Obviously there may well have been loads of asymptomatic cases but nobody would know about those). @noblegiraffe I know you don't want to hear about "anecdata" such as mine BUT it proves your point so please bear with me!

In our 2 secondary schools:

• Children with coughs etc are isolated in a specific room in each school, masked, and sent home PDQ.
• All windows are open.
• Staggered start and finish times.
• Different entrances.
• Loads of sinks and sanitiser everywhere (interestingly, both schools have done this - I have no idea where the comp got the money from, but they have managed it).
• Staggered break and lunch times.
• Masks masks masks (despite what the stupid government guidance says). Masks everywhere except when sitting down in a classroom or sitting down to eat (and see below re masks in classrooms).
• Private schools obviously don't issue fines for non-attendance anyway; the comp isn't counting covid-related isolation / illness in its absence figures.
• The private school has all lessons available to dial in via zoom if a student is self-isolating.
• The comp is teaching the Sixth Form remotely via MS Teams in the afternoons, so clearly remote learning CAN be done in the state secondary sector. I've listened to some of my DC's lessons and they have been amazing.
• ECV teachers in both schools have been given the option to work remotely, supporting students who are self-isolating.
• increased mental health support for staff.

We have had a case (in the comp) where a parent sent in a child who was waiting for the results of a Covid test . This being a secondary school, where the students are old enough to take responsibility for these things, it only took about five minutes for literally tens of students to report this to their teachers, and the child was promptly isolated, masked, and sent home again.

The government guidelines for schools are ridiculous, and it is possible to go against them in order to make a school as Covid-secure as possible, but it comes down to extremely firm leadership and parental support. Our Head (the one in the state comprehensive) faced a huge backlash from parents at the start of term when he mandated facemarks EVERYWHERE in school for the first two weeks, including in lessons. But he stuck to his guns. And I can quite see that in a lot of schools / communities it won't be possible to do this.

That said - the only way to make schools (and anywhere else tbh) fully Covid-secure is to close them! And, despite not wanting children to miss any more education, I fear that we are now in a position where not closing the schools is simply going to prolong this agony for everyone

I agree with you. It can and does work and is in some schools and areas where people are working together.

The university towns are struggling.

The schools here are working so hard and it shows. Thanks to them and the students it does work.

It is the adults - students at uni - adults that party - adults that will not follow simple guidelines and gather in groups - those are the problem.

@TierTiersTiers yes, I agree. And it must be so hard for the parents and teachers on here, who see posts like mine and simply cannot comprehend that we have a low number of cases here, when they are facing huge numbers of absences and Covid-positive cases in their schools.

I live in a university town. Looking at our local figures (broken down by each ward within our council area), the overwhelming majority of covid-positive cases are occurring in the university areas.

Poor uni students; they really have been sold down the river.

@TiersTiersTiers The data from Spain isn't comparable. Students and teachers over the age of 6 wear masks all day now in school. In my school no one wears masks apart from on the buses. They also have single desks which can easily be spaced apart and larger classrooms. Students tend to stay with one class all day rather than going off to different sets or option groups. Ironically, they have less air conditioning units than British schools and of course the climate means they are more able to ventilate their classrooms.

Ironically, the big rise in cases in the Yr7-11 age group seems to roughly correlate to the beginning of half term in many parts of the country! That screams to me that there's less transmission when the children are in a controlled school environment, and more when they are able to have more of a free rein and are out and about socialising, seeing people from other schools, or taking holidays, eating out etc. It certainly doesn't suggest that schools being open is the main factor in spread - quite the opposite.

Regarding schools closing in general - I think that clearly that in areas of high infection, there may be times that a short (2 week or so) whole school closure may be sensible, due to levels identified within that school. In that time teachers will need to provide cohort appropriate high quality remote learning (with feedback) so that those students are not disadvantaged. But areas like mine, with a current weekly case rate of less than 40 cases per 100,000 where there have been no cases at all in our secondary school (or in any of the other ones in our area to my knowledge), it doesn't seem justified to force children to stay away from school where they are happy and learn well at this time.

Kids are hardly affected by the virus. So their schooling should stop because of this virus based on protecting those people that are ‘vulnerable?’

Is it a case of old for young? This is scaremongering.
And actually young people getting the virus is better in the long term.
Ffs

Ironically, the big rise in cases in the Yr7-11 age group seems to roughly correlate to the beginning of half term in many parts of the country!

You’re forgetting about incubation periods. We won’t know the real impact of half term till next week.

@mrsm43s Given that the incubation period for the virus is anything between 3 and 14 days. I would imagine most of the data relates back to the last few weeks of the first half term. Bear in mind too that the data will likely be a few days old and that much of the country has their half term this week. Your first assertion therefore doesn't hold much water.

With regards to school in general, without mass testing of asymptomatic students it can be hard to identify schools where there are issues until the harm is done. I was also in an area with less that 40 cases per 100,000 until a few weeks ago but since then things have gone mad. Once the virus gets a hold in a school, it is pretty much allowed to rip through unchecked, particularly as the government are so keen for the attendance figures to look good that they are discouraging sending home all but the closest contacts.

@NJool

Kids are hardly affected by the virus. So their schooling should stop because of this virus based on protecting those people that are ‘vulnerable?’

Is it a case of old for young? This is scaremongering.
And actually young people getting the virus is better in the long term.
Ffs

Kids aren't in isolation in society.

Boring saying the same thing over and over...