Covid measures 'a monument of collective hysteria and folly'

[RonaLisa]

The Guardian is not my natural habitat, but this is spot on.

It needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

Lionel Shriver and Jonathan Sumption, two people who don't need to worry about the NHS collapsing because they don't need to use it.

I'm getting more than a bit tired of hearing the privileged urge other people to take risks they can avoid.

You are correct Cornettoninja . WHO have not covered themselves in glory in any of this. Nor China for that matter.

The measures were not designed to reduce personal risk - ie the risk of Covid to each of us separately. The measures were designed to reduce the flow of very ill people to hospitals, given that hospitals had almost no capacity to take them in.

If the measures hadn't been put in place and we had each acted only taking into account our personal individual risk from coronavirus then my guess is that things would have been much much worse than they have been.

This.

And what really saddens me is the callous disregard for the 'old' and sick people. We are human too. Most of us have many, many years of life expectancy left. Do we not matter?

@Jaxhog

The measures were not designed to reduce personal risk - ie the risk of Covid to each of us separately. The measures were designed to reduce the flow of very ill people to hospitals, given that hospitals had almost no capacity to take them in.

If the measures hadn't been put in place and we had each acted only taking into account our personal individual risk from coronavirus then my guess is that things would have been much much worse than they have been.

This.

And what really saddens me is the callous disregard for the 'old' and sick people. We are human too. Most of us have many, many years of life expectancy left. Do we not matter?

Not according to the tedious libertarians, they'd happily sacrifice you, while of course ensuring that they are in no way ever remotely at any risk.

@Cornettoninja

Tawain got it under control because they took action and worked together

Taiwan, and other countries surrounding China have enough experience with China to understand that when they were closing down wuhan things were very very serious. If I’m recalling correctly this was around the time of the Chinese New Year and the calls for banning travel were shouted down by China (thanks for that guys) and the WHO.

It’s insane to think world governments didn’t take their cue from Taiwan and the like.

Yes agree with this. Taiwan stood out and everyone else did as the WHO suggested.

Not according to the tedious libertarians, they'd happily sacrifice you, while of course ensuring that they are in no way ever remotely at any risk
And likewise, all those calling for further lockdowns are happy to sacrifice those with serious mental health problems, happy to see huge rises in suicide and self harm, happy to see people lose their homes and their jobs and their careers. I take it you fall into this category SaskiaRembrandt ?

@Jaxhog

The measures were not designed to reduce personal risk - ie the risk of Covid to each of us separately. The measures were designed to reduce the flow of very ill people to hospitals, given that hospitals had almost no capacity to take them in.

If the measures hadn't been put in place and we had each acted only taking into account our personal individual risk from coronavirus then my guess is that things would have been much much worse than they have been.

This.

And what really saddens me is the callous disregard for the 'old' and sick people. We are human too. Most of us have many, many years of life expectancy left. Do we not matter?

Do people who have committed suicide because of lockdown not matter Jaxhog ? Where is your compassion?

@toxtethOgradyUSA

Not according to the tedious libertarians, they'd happily sacrifice you, while of course ensuring that they are in no way ever remotely at any risk And likewise, all those calling for further lockdowns are happy to sacrifice those with serious mental health problems, happy to see huge rises in suicide and self harm, happy to see people lose their homes and their jobs and their careers. I take it you fall into this category SaskiaRembrandt ?

You take it wrong then.

If I’m recalling correctly this was around the time of the Chinese New Year and the calls for banning travel were shouted down by China (thanks for that guys) and the WHO

Yes, you're remembering correctly. China locked down cities including Wuhan only after millions had already travelled for New Year - about 5 million of them according to The Lancet - so although they made a lot of noise about "New Year being cancelled", some might consider it was too late

Some also consider the WHO is rather too close to China and its influence, but that's a whole other thread ...

Lionel Shriver and Jonathan Sumption, two people who don't need to worry about the NHS collapsing because they don't need to use it

Well im guessing BUPA doesnt attend RTAs????

Because anyone can be involved in one of those unfortunately.

@MercyBooth

Lionel Shriver and Jonathan Sumption, two people who don't need to worry about the NHS collapsing because they don't need to use it

Well im guessing BUPA doesnt attend RTAs????

I doubt very much that either of them are relying on BUPA. Lionel Shriver may live here but she is American.

You are missing the point. You tried to say that they dont need the NHS. But everyone does. Because its not BUPA who comes out to you in an emergency like an RTA, So thats where your argument falls down.

The NSH never shut down, despite the lies told about that. It even went on doing some non emergency work in areas that were no over-run. And everyone needing a baby delivered or went to hospital as an emergency got a bed if needed. That will not happen if we go on as we are - and then death rates will be higher.

Kicking the can down the road means better treatments available and less death. It hopefully means less survivors with long term illness too.

This is Bolton ICU recently - via American television

It's possible to stay in, not risk the RTA and sit this out until the rest of you are dead, long term disabled or recovered.

Its possible for middle class people to stay in while poor people bring them things.

@MercyBooth

Its possible for middle class people to stay in while poor people bring them things.

Most people would consider doctors middle-class. They're on the frontline. Risking death, long-term disability due to Long Covid, and PTSD.

They, together with all the other frontline workers - whatever class - would much prefer that others didn't put them (or their patients, customers, and colleagues) in any additional unnecessary danger.

Agree with every word in this article.

The scientific expert, Professor Devi Sridhar, advising Nicola Sturgeon explains it well.

@devisridhar
Such false logic: uncontrolled spread doesn’t mean ‘just some people die.’ It means health services collapsing bc of high COVID hospitalisation rate (so all patients suffer), lasting economic damage from people being scared & changing behaviour, & society going backwards.

As she says the European summer holidays are a major reason why we are where we are today.

@devisridhar
Two approaches: either keeping borders largely open like the UK, but adopting harsh domestic restrictions to try to combat community transmission; or having very tight border controls, like Taiwan and New Zealand, but few restrictions on everyday life.

Europe paying for summer holidays with winter lockdowns.

theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/30/coronavirus-strain-from-spain-accounts-for-most-uk-cases-study

2 things: I have a SIL who is a nurse. She was called back into covid wa during the first wave. She spent her days turning off ventilators and sitting with people while they died. She brought them tablets to say goodbye to their families. Some of them took longer to die than expected, they begged her to end it. She waited till they died, triple bagged their bodies, moved on to the next one.
She cried on her way to work every day, and crieay on the way home every day. Her mental health suffered hugely, to the point where she says if there is a second wave she will quit nursing rather than do that again.
But people's mental health is suffering because they can't go to the pub? What "freedoms" are actually being removed? Shoe shopping?
There will be lots of health care workers who leave because of this. These people are already in scarce supply. Whether you care about their mental health or not, that's a huge worry

Your poor SIL ThePlatypusAlwaysTriumphs
People really need to start thinking of the effect on our under pressure frontline staff. Including the mental health impact. PTSD is a very real possibility.

Platypus's sil is an exemplar.

DD's ASD/ADHD team locked down mid March. No face to face apts, no video apts, best is a phone call between 9-5 because they can't provide a time slit for an apt. The facility has remained shut since March - impossible to divert calls to the admin team who are "working from home". I have written to my MP and the CEO for an explanation. Parts of the NHS are taking the tiddle.

@OhTheRoses
I'm sorry about your DD. Definitely worth taking up with your MP. There's no reason why she couldn't have received remote care - which is what was happening across the UK. Unless...are you in an area with very high number of Covid cases? It's possible if so that too many of the HCP are dead or off sick and therefore unavailable to treat patients.

Professor Sridhar, the scientific expert advising the Scottish government explains it well. See my post above, where I quote her. Like she says uncontained Covid = no healthcare.

Thanks guys. I said 2 things but only said one! My other friend is an ICU nurse, who was called back from her annual leave to treat covid patients and has been told there will be no Christmas leave.
People can talk about mental health issues till the cows come home but the stress these guys are under cannot be understood by many of us