Covid measures 'a monument of collective hysteria and folly'

[RonaLisa]

The Guardian is not my natural habitat, but this is spot on.

It needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

@Namenic

We know that it’s possible to get health system being overwhelmed - Wuhan, apparently places on continent are at this stage at the moment. What makes people think that won’t happen in U.K.?

Why can’t we get 2nd wave under control like Melbourne, Hong Kong, s Korea?

British Exceptionalism.

Its amazing to watch. Never fails to boogle my mind.

3 or 4 weeks from now...

Frustrating to see this rubbish peddled again, people are dying of Covid, not just the elderly or vulnerable either. It’s an unpredictable illness and I dread to think where we would be without ‘scaremongering’. It’s hard enough to get people to take the current level of restrictions seriously, dread to think what would happen if people had no fear of the virus.

@NannyMcphee39

Frustrating to see this rubbish peddled again, people are dying of Covid, not just the elderly or vulnerable either. It’s an unpredictable illness and I dread to think where we would be without ‘scaremongering’. It’s hard enough to get people to take the current level of restrictions seriously, dread to think what would happen if people had no fear of the virus.

What would happen?

Likely we would start seeing the benefits of heard immunity like some other countries now are, in about 6 to 8 weeks.

Obviously that doesn’t mean it goes away, or that no one ever gets reinfected. It does mean it becomes much harder for the virus to spread and dramatically slows it down allowing people to start returning to normal life.

There is growing scientific support for this. Unfortunately with us coming into winter people are going to die like they do every winter and the government need to be seen to be trying to do something (despite never have done anything other than a few flu jabs in previous years) so very death will be framed by a percentage of the public to be a failing of the government when in reality it’s just how a virus in winter works before it burns itself out and slows down.

Not a popular opinion, but let’s see in February

There really isn't 'growing scientific support' for this.

Unless you mean 'the Guardian keeps pushing it'

If the death rates are not likely to be like any other winter. This is not the flu.

I do however agree that transmission will wane is spring. February might be a bit optimistic, but once the sun is stronger and the seasons change, the transmission of viruses which thrive best in winter conditions will wane

We know that it’s possible to get health system being overwhelmed - Wuhan, apparently places on continent are at this stage at the moment. What makes people think that won’t happen in U.K.?

It’s because they think the problem is our health service not being prepared rather than the fact that not controlling the virus properly would overwhelm any healthcare service in the world many times over. It’s a new way to bash the NHS by people who don’t seem to realise this can’t be solved by buying a bit more PPE & opening a few Nightingales.

One of several UK based articles now suggesting T cell responses, while not fully understood, could mean the initial worst case scenario was way off and that our own ability to fight back as a population might be as effective, if not more so, than a vaccine.

Obviously in an ideal world you have both like we do with flu. A vaccine for the vulnerable and a natural defence/response I the rest of the population.

www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563

Good point Rafa

People sometimes point to the superior capacity of the German and French health systems, but the latest comments from Merkel and Macron are both framed in terms of their health systems being unable to cope.

@lhg27 Immunologists have been talking about the role of T cells for months.

It's extent and role has not been properly established yet, and some of the assumptions have been shown to be flawed with the transmission patterns in the early second wave

I dont know. I agreed with the first lockdown at the time but now not so sure. Feels like all we have done is push this shit show into the winter when the NHS already struggles but another lockdown would ruin so many peoples lives

@Jrobhatch29

I dont know. I agreed with the first lockdown at the time but now not so sure. Feels like all we have done is push this shit show into the winter when the NHS already struggles but another lockdown would ruin so many peoples lives

That is my take on it too.

I begrudgingly agreed with the first lockdown but really, it only kicked the can on down the road as predicted. We can't keep locking down, trashing the economy even further and wrecking even more people's livelihoods.

I thought the whole point was to keep kicking the can down the road, so NHS does not get completely overwhelmed (and can keep at least some other imposrtant services going in 'clean' areas/hospitals)

And then once through the winter virus season, we see if a vaccine is really in the offing and can be administered to enough care and health staff, and the vulnerable (age/underlying condition) who we want to protect, so that the rest of us can just get on with it. To be done during the summer months next year when transmission is likely to be lower.

Or if not, then start to work out how to live with it as an endemic disease, which might mean protecting the vulnerable in some other way. But I've never seen anyone recommend a decent set of steps that would confer protection - perhaps the thinking on that is what will also be going on from the spring?

The ones advocating a full, 'strict' lockdown are almost certainly the ones whose income won't be affected or who won't really lose out.

@Versace104

The ones advocating a full, 'strict' lockdown are almost certainly the ones whose income won't be affected or who won't really lose out.

Of course this is the case Versace104. We all know who they are and we are all beginning to recognise their names on the Covid threads. They say the same things and repeat the same phrases over and over and over (like they are working from the same script). It's the I'm alright Jack brigade. The we're all in it together brigade (right up until the point where it might impact them and their cushy life - at which point they are happy to see the young thrown under a bus). It's the baby boomers with their final salary pension brigade. It's the SAHM, hubby has a nice WFH job brigade (hence they have so much time to spread their misleading ideas on here). These people will keep shouting from the rooftops about the NHS being "on the verge of meltdown" or hugely exaggerating the issue of "long covid". (Do they have an original idea between them? I rather think not). They will never - EVER - accept that, actually, they might just be wrong about a few things; actually just ONE thing (hence their constant dismissal of Sweden which they refuse to engage in any kind of sensible debate on). I have come to conclude that such people are genuinely revelling in all this and can't wait for the next lockdown to start. It's probably the most exciting thing to happen to them for years... [sits back and waits for abuse/name-calling to start]

toxtethOgradyUSA

Had to double check I didn’t post that

I agree with every thing you’ve said.

Yes, I have actually seen people almost bouncing around in excitement at the thought of another lockdown. I think a small number of people actually love the drama of it all and love the opportunity to tell others what they can and can't do.

I do Versace104 . What got me thinking this was the clapping with the NHS thing. People were absolutely buzzing about it in my community, it was all on FB the whole of Thursday, whose out tonight, do we have fireworks etc etc. None of it felt right.

That's it, WFH, nice big house/garden, probably living in a middle-class suburb, hubby on full income.

We should have bit the bullet and used the nightingale hospitals if needed through the summer before flu season in the winter hits rather than locking every one away. We’re now in the dangerous spot of flu and Covid.

We’re now at a worse off position than before.

So we’ve fucked the economy and about to go in to a shocking winter.

I think opinion of what MNetters think, must depend on which threads you open.

I see acceptance of need to control transmission, for this first winter, rather then any revelling in it.

@Versace104

Yes, I have actually seen people almost bouncing around in excitement at the thought of another lockdown. I think a small number of people actually love the drama of it all and love the opportunity to tell others what they can and can't do.

Works both ways though, I detect an amount of patronising superior delight in those telling everyone it’s a massive overreaction because they ‘know better’.

I would be ecstatic for them to be proved right yet reality keeps playing out differently.

@Versace104

That's it, WFH, nice big house/garden, probably living in a middle-class suburb, hubby on full income.

One of the saddest things I seen that really hit home the difference of people’s living space was a small child in high rise flats on a tricycle on a tiny balcony way up high. Gorgeous weather and no one was allowed outside.

Those families were massively effected. It’s not fair in them

Gorgeous weather and no one was allowed outside

Yes, being shielded and not allowed it for daily exercise was shit

This is why I get so wary if those who talk about 'protect the vulnerable' because if they mean the sort of isolation we already did for months this year - not even daily exercise outside our own property - it's going to be really, really shit

Hmmmm. I haven’t see anyone ‘bouncing around with excitement’ tbh. I have seen some extreme views, ranging from ‘its over’ to ‘full lockdown now!’

There is no good way to manage this. I tended to be middle ground I think. Full lockdown is awful but if it’s short and sharp AND time limited, it might feel better than these endless quasi lockdowns with odd rules. Whatever people think though and whether they like it or not, ‘doing nothing’ will it never be an option until the vaccine arrives.

Letting the virus ‘rip through’ And get on with life is a risk the government won’t take. That path will still lead to negative economic and social impacts. And risk deaths piling up potentially. Not a good look politically.

Tawain got it under control because they took action and worked together.

Here were more interested in whats in it for us, personally.

Tawain got it under control because they took action and worked together

Taiwan, and other countries surrounding China have enough experience with China to understand that when they were closing down wuhan things were very very serious. If I’m recalling correctly this was around the time of the Chinese New Year and the calls for banning travel were shouted down by China (thanks for that guys) and the WHO.

It’s insane to think world governments didn’t take their cue from Taiwan and the like.