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Pure data thread #1: Daily numbers, graphs, focused analyses

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 21/10/2020 17:20

This is pure data, NOT for the "worried about Corona"

We welcome calm factual, data-driven contributions
Please try to keep discussion focused on these and avoid emotional venting or politics
📈 📉 📊 👍

Resource links

UK:
Uk dashboard R, deaths, cases, hospitals, tests - by postcode, 4 nations, English regions, LAs
Interactive 7-day rolling cases map click on map or by postcode
UK govt pressers Slides & data
SAGE Table Interventions with impacts and R
Imperial UK weekly tables & extrapolations LAs, cases / 100k, table, map, hotspots
School statistics Attendance - Tuesdays
ICNRC Intensive Care National Audit & Research reports
UK testing and NHS England track & trace - Thursdays
ONS Roundup deaths, infections & economic reports
ONS England, Wales & NI Infection surveillance report - Fridays
ONS Datasets for surveillance reports
Our World in Data UK test positivity
R estimates & daily growth UK & English regions - Fridays
Modelling real number of UK infections February in first wave

England:
NHS England Hospital activity
NHS England Daily deaths
PHE COVID Clinical Risk Factors Non-respiratory by region, area, district etc
Cases Tracker England Local Government
PHE surveillance reports Covid, flu, respiratory diseases - Thursdays
CovidMessenger live update by council district in England

Scotland, Wales, NI:
Scot gov Daily data
Scotland TravellingTabby LAs, care homes, hospitals, tests, t&t
PH Wales LAs, tests, ONS deaths
NI Dashboard

COVID-19 Risk Factors
Alama Personal COVID risk assessment
PHE Clinical RFs - summary & social vulnerability indicators
PHE Clinical RFs - respiratory disease
PHE Clinical RFs - non-respiratory - CVD,T1, T2, obesity, flu jab coverage
PHE Non-Clinical RFs - deprivation, demography, economic inactivity, ethnicity
PHE Non-Clinical RFs - Vulnerable Groups (1): care / nursing home, MH, visual disabilities
PHE Non-Clinical RFs - homeless, children in care, ESL

Miscell:
Zoe Uk data
ECDC rolling 14-day incidence EEA & UK
Worldometer UK page
FT DIY graphs compare deaths, cases, raw / million pop
Local Mobility Reports for countries
UK Highstreet Tracker for cities & large towns Footfall, spend index, workers, visitors, economic recovery
NHS Triage Dashboard Pathways - triages of symptoms
NHS Triage Dashboard Progression - # people pillar 1&2, # triages

Our STUDIES Corner

OP posts:
Thread gallery
81
BigChocFrenzy · 22/10/2020 23:20

When we look at new daily deaths / million, not a huge difference between levels France, Spain, Belgium, NL, UK

Curve for Spain has a different form - they've been at the same level for some time, but levelled off
However, I'm a bit dubious about Spain's figures, after reports of some creative accounting before the summer tourist season.

What will save or wreck the situation in each country is the capacity left in the hospitals and ICU,
but afaik, no stats to plot a graph for that

We can criticise the NHS for cancelling ops etc, but being ruthlessly practical like that - in time - can save lives
I wonder if Belgium and the NL have done that in time ?

Pure data thread #1: Daily numbers, graphs, focused analyses
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/10/2020 23:27

"Requiring school children to wear masks might slow spread enough to prevent this"

At the infection levels in the UK and most of Europe, masks in secondary seems logical from an epidemiological pov.

The problem is political, compliance again

  • too many parents still against and what to do in practice with mask refusers who claim PTSD / MH etc

Also, more enforcement of adults wearing masks properly, not under their stupid noses

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/10/2020 23:34

btw, am I the only one surprised at supermarkets being the top place for infections reported to t&t ?

Pubs, restaurants I expected, then schools, but supermarkets with masks etc ?
Reporting bias, or too many silly arses with masks under their nose / none at all ?

PHE: Weekly Influenza and COVID-19 Surveillance graphs

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/928749/WeeklyyCOVID-19anddInfluenzaSurveillanceeGraphsW433FINAL.pdf

Pure data thread #1: Daily numbers, graphs, focused analyses
Pure data thread #1: Daily numbers, graphs, focused analyses
OP posts:
Augustbreeze · 22/10/2020 23:51

I'd honestly think that high figure for supermarkets is because people who are trying to conceal the non SD rave up they attended at the weekend say "oh yeah it must have been in Tesco on Saturday morning, I was doing the weekly shop".

PatriciaHolm · 23/10/2020 00:03

@BigChocFrenzy

btw, am I the only one surprised at supermarkets being the top place for infections reported to t&t ?

Pubs, restaurants I expected, then schools, but supermarkets with masks etc ?
Reporting bias, or too many silly arses with masks under their nose / none at all ?

PHE: Weekly Influenza and COVID-19 Surveillance graphs

[[https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment]]data/file/928749/WeeklyyCOVID-19anddInfluenzaSurveillanceeGraphsW433FINAL.pdf

Hang on - we need to be careful with interpretation of that.

That chart is not "locations of infections". It's "where people who got infected have been recently".

I would imagine any representative sample of the population would produce a similar % of people who had been to the supermarket in the last few days, for example. There is nothing there that suggests the supermarket (or pub, or restaurant) was the source.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/10/2020 00:15

It's an inference as to where they were infected, but t&t don't seem to have any better way
Correlation, not causation

How often do people go shopping vs go to school ?
I think a schools thread is using the schools figures atm

OP posts:
TheSunIsStillShining · 23/10/2020 01:31

If I was in power I'd ask the following questions:

  • how much does it cost to shut all UK hospitality businesses and pay them per month? Every person full salary.
  • what is the additional cost to NHS because of covid? (nightingales, whatever new name hospitals... not focusing on ppe)
  • what economic damage will it have x years down the line if XXXXX ppl die? How much less tax? (Actually this I think they've done and shrugged)
  • look on a national level of jobs and skills. Not like the retraining thing the gov put out - which was a joke-, but really have a think of what sectors are in real peril (arts) and how could they be utilized elsewhere. Or how they could help. These schemes should be funded by gov let's say through charities. Example: arts ppl could run online arts sessions for kids/adults. Charity pays, free for the individual. Perfect chatting options + stress reduction,...
  • literally look through every sector's numbers and assess and ideate.

schools

  • assess specifically every school and how they did in the summer term. Look at adata and do phone surveys of identified vulnerable to see if they have infrastructure.
  • Assume -hypothetically- that about 70% of kids did good. Shift them to blended learning.
A: look at curr. to reduce and focus on material that can be better delivered this way. Nobody says they can't have double DT next year and none this year... This year they'll focus more on english or math.... B: look at additional issues uncovered in a phone interview series (randomized) C: have a strategy in place for exam years by end of september the latest. Gov should not be effing these kids over who are stressed as it is on many exam factory schools. (not all like that I know and not all kids are stressed)
  • look at how we could deliver safely meals to FSM kids OR the kids to the meals, whatever works in the specific setting.

(or make frekking proper masks mandatory with no exception in sec. Don't want/can't: stay home. and forget the fines thing...it's disgusting in this situation)

  • NHS: there's just to much there, that I won't even go into it. Logistics looks like a mess, supply chains seem to be either broken or just clogged....

This is no more than the surface. They had fucking months to do these. And I don't think countries in Europe really were afraid of a second wave. All of them, the worst hit and the almost not even hit, took it lightly. No matter what scientists and common sense say, most govs where idly waiting for the shit to hit the fan and then be mildly surprised by how quickly it gets on their face.
Please someone explain why govs are not doing these assessments? I'm pretty sure the uk gov isn't. rishi's new plan is no more than let's throw some money and hope they will be quieted by it.

Choconuttolata · 23/10/2020 02:04

I agree bcf re: ICU capacity being a factor in the short term. Remember the NHS decision tool back in April www.google.com/amp/s/inews.co.uk/news/covid-19-decision-support-tool-doctors-patients-intensive-care-417894/amp which had incredibly difficult ethical and legal considerations for clinicians. NICE guidance www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng159/chapter/4-Clinical-decision-making-and-management.

In some areas over 70's were not getting a ICU bed at the height of the first peak. I am hoping they have more bipap and CPAP machines now as patients on these are nursed 2:1 by HDU trained nurses for which training up staff is a lot easier to achieve (especially in nurses used to caring for respiratory patients) quickly than caring for fully vented patients. Also more high flow oxygen delivery systems for ward use. That plus early use of treatments such as dexamethasone and people entering hospital earlier and less unwell (999/111 triage improvements) might help reduce numbers needing full intensive care freeing up beds for people who need more complex organ support.

Many trusts have bed shortages (no beds and patients waiting hours on trolleys in A&E) in the summer let alone winter flu season when elective surgeries are routinely cancelled to create extra beds (and ward staff meeting rooms repurposed as bed spaces). This is why we need to keep hospital admissions down going towards winter.

MRex · 23/10/2020 06:28

It's here: www.govwire.co.uk/news/department-of-health/press-release-sewage-signals-early-warning-of-coronavirus-outbreaks-62296.

Increase to 90 sites, integrate to test & trace. It gave early warning of the Plymouth outbreak and tracked London infections back to February, so they now know what to do with it. Slowly slowly, it's not yet at postcode level and no report on actual findings, so is not yet at the level I hoped as this level is about what I expected from August. Still, at least it's now officially part of the surveillance.

Piggywaspushed · 23/10/2020 06:52

I read the Tesco email too. Planning pot noodles for Christmas Dinner now...

Loftyloft · 23/10/2020 07:01

In regards to ‘are primary schools low risk’ I’d absolutely agree that children are less likely to have symptoms, and have covid seriously.
I am very much for primary schools staying open (unless they have out of control covid Cases)
My ds’ class (yr 4) is an interesting case study, though appreciate it may not be typical:

14th oct - class sent home due to TA testing positive

14th-18th no More cases

19th-22nd At least one parent from 5 families got covid symptoms and positive tests. Only one of the children in the families had a positive test at the same time.

It’s just a single case study, transmission in the local area isn’t huge but there are other cases. So whilst these parents could have got covid from another source (families are in separate friendship groups so do not believe they mixed themselves), it seems likely that for at least some of these families, the children did get covid asymptomatically in that first week, and then pass it on to parents whilst asymptomatic.

NeurotrashWarrior · 23/10/2020 07:23

I find it interesting that the actual cluster data is similar to secondary. In terms of the fact that where there's been a confirmed case, there's a secondary transmitted infection.

The actual numbers are lower as they're more likely to be asymptomatic as lofty says and can only spread to those in their bubble of 30-60 kids.

Secondary can spread to groups of 300-600 or way more than that.

A year 9 I know of had 3 cases; close contacts ended up being 71% of the year so they decided to close the bubble.

Teachers have noticed that yr 12 has lower rates of infection. We've postulated that yr12 are thrown in with kids they're not usually friends with and take a while to find their feet and mingle more; I remember sticking v closely to a v small group in yr 12 and making more friends by yr13. by yr 13 they're all snogging each other

I would be really interested in how data in middle schools yrs 5-9 looks and if it in any way differs; either depending on whether they can keep smaller bubbles or children make more friends in yr 6 and 7 etc.

pussycatinboots · 23/10/2020 07:31

Piggy that or beans? Grin

Mrex
RE Supermarkets - that really is the only place we go (DH collects his meds from the pharmacy once a month too)
SD doesn't work in Tesco any more as so many people are ordering Click and Collect (as was seen by the queue in the car park at 8.15am on a school day Tues) or home delivery. The aisles are full of staff doing the shopping for the people not wanting to go in the store.
Morrisons is quieter, but they keep swapping and changing their queueing systems for the tils, and if you go at 10.30 on a Thursday you queue to get in.
Sainsbury is somewhere between the two.
Just a small snapshot from South Cheshire - the stores are within about 5 miles of each other (there's also Asda, 3 Aldi, Iceland, 2 M&S = lots of shopping "capacity" iyswim, but we're surrounded by rural areas with no supermarkets/larger catchment)
Being told by Tesco to go shopping earlier/"off peak" won't be much use if they continue to make their staff do the picking at the same time.🤦🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

Hmmph · 23/10/2020 08:20

Is there any data showing non-positive people’s activity over the same timescale so it can be compared?

For example, if 1% of the public go to the zoo in a week, but 5% of those testing positive go in a week it would indicate zoos need to be looked at. Or if 80% of people go to the supermarket in a week and 80% of positive people go to the supermarket in a week, then that’s just normal activity not a potential source of infection.

I would also suggest that it is less cautious people going to the supermarket anyway, so potentially those who are less careful in general.

Sewage survey is interesting, but should have started in the summer!

Thank you for the data threads BCF, I really appreciate them.

sirfredfredgeorge · 23/10/2020 08:36

It's an inference as to where they were infected, but t&t don't seem to have any better way Correlation, not causation

Well there is no better way, unless you get into the back tracing of infections and typing the viruses to see exactly, and that's utterly impractical.

How often do people go shopping vs go to school ?

I never go to school, go to the supermarket once a day (and many days more than one supermarket) Evidence for supermarket spread must be weak, supermarkets were open with no masks for months with R well below 1.

FingonTheValiant · 23/10/2020 08:42

Re France - honestly the compliance is pretty good. I haven’t seen a single person try to claim an exemption for a mask. There are a few people wearing them under their noses, but a pretty small number. Although some of our students are trying that. I had once class just before the holidays when 10 of them had their masks under their noses - so I just told them to put them on properly, which they did. Although one boy replied «But Madame, it’s not like it spreads by air!». So I sorted that out too...

We are allowed to punish them for incorrect mask wearing, and we do for the repeat offenders. At our school it comes under the «inappropriate attitude or behaviour» category. The peer pressure to wear the mask properly is higher in some classes than others. My form group (year 9) are all over it.

There was complaining in Aix-Marseille when they first closed the bars and restaurants, but that was partly because Paris had similar numbers and no restrictions, so they rightly felt it was unfair.

The first 2 weeks of curfew have had high compliance. People are grumbling but they’re doing it. There are reports about organised parties in curfew zones, but the numbers are climbing in the higher age groups now, more than in the illegal partying age, although obviously that’s not helping.

Where we fall down is on family mixing. There was a recommendation not to, and they recommended sticking to rule of 6, but no one is. They recommended we restrict travel during the holidays, but didn’t want to forbid it. So people are travelling. Apparently fewer are «going on holiday», but the numbers visiting family across the country are still high.

It’s back into care homes and hospitals are in trouble. Lille has brought in their «plan blanc» which is when they cancel surgery etc to make more ICU beds. So that’s a bad sign.

And then other weird things. Like the teacher training. We’re still doing regional teacher training twice a week, so almost 100 teachers from 5 départements, 2 of which are under curfew, spending 8 hours together in a room... and the practical subjects had three days national training during the holidays, bringing together teachers from the whole country to certain cities, including some which were under lockdown.

Not only are schools remaining open and responsible for the highest proportion of clusters, but all sports and activities for under 18s are open too. Which mixes together children from different schools. Honestly, I’m glad they’re open, the kids need them and it’s good for them. No adults allowed to stay and watch any more. Drop off outside the building etc. But I’m not sure how long they’ll allow them to stay open... it can’t be helping.

I would say the French are being good at following the laws, but believe a recommendation applies to no one. People don’t even hesitate.

FingonTheValiant · 23/10/2020 08:55

Oh sorry, re what’s open. In curfew areas indoor swimming pools are closed except for school swimming, children’s clubs and professionals. Indoor sport halls are closed with the same exceptions. Gyms are closed.

Oh, people with a medical prescription for sport can still do it.

Bars have to serve food to be allowed to open. Otherwise they’re fully closed. Play areas and exhibition spaces are closed. Fun fairs are closed despite being outdoors (it’s fun fair season here).

Restaurants, cinemas, theatres etc are open but everyone has to be home by 9pm. And they do mean home by 9, not on the way.

They are encouraging 50% WFH.

Universities are only allowed to have 50% of students on site.

In the whole of France you cannot meet in groups of more than 6 in public, that’s a recommendation for private homes.

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2020 09:54

I read the Tesco email as meaning "Please don't all expect to be able to crowd into our stores on 23/24 Dec, you won't be allowed in!"

Yep thats how i read it. Buy your Christmas dinner and mince pies early to avoid problems and ridiculous queues later. If everyone tries to do home delivery or click and collect later there will be more of a problem than a supply shock. The supermarkets probably have got the stock to enable more buying atm and actually want to encourage people to do it NOW because they may be more worried about supply shock and panic buying in December due to no deal Brexit. So if people do stockpile a bit now, it might offset some of the demand in January if they anticipate possible problems then.

As for people shopping. Theres not much else to do if you cant have friends over.

Re my ongoing thoughts on long term issues with regards to current numbers and hospitalisations and in the context of if the vaccine is only as effective as flu in context with the BMJ article....

... Then that poses something of a long term problem to stop hospitals being overwhelmed.

If the working assumption of a worst case scenario is the vaccine will only be as effective as the flu one then we have to factor this in to our strategy now.

My calculation:
The number of people under 50 who won't get a vaccine who haven't had covid (as we think only a small % of the population have even now) +
The number of people who have the vaccine but for whom it doesn't work for could still prove an issue in 12 months time +
New restrictions next autumn realistically being politically and economically unfeasible meaning our ability to control the R rate artificially next year could be much more difficult
+
Trust and effectiveness of track and trace is not sufficient and there is a realisation that it probably will never achieve the rates sufficient to control spread of the virus alone.
Versus
Our ongoing low bed capacity.

Therefore:
In that sense, having higher numbers of cases in the uk this year may not be the worst thing and may be the only option to stop problems further down the line.

It explains the switch in government strategy to a second line of defence for mass testing. But as previously discussed there are cost barriers to this and logistical issues to solve which we don't fully know will be successful. (I wondered about this cos it always struck me as a long term strategy even though it seems to be being pitched as a short term one. Its not. Its the first admission of just how long this is going to go on due to the maths)

Why have they done this despite it quite frankly looking like its little more than wishful thinking?

Because, of our NHS capacity and unless we go on a massive recruitment drive, we cant expand that significantly in a year to match what demand for beds there could still be in 12 months time.

I wonder how many people the penny has dropped for on this and how people will react if that does turn out to be the case and this enters the public consciousness.

The UK could realistically face exactly the same problem as this year, next year. Can you imagine? It wont be tolerated.

It also leaves us with a possible scenario of even if you get the vaccine, if you are in an older vulnerable group then you may still be facing shielding 12 months from now anyway. As its the only feasible option left on the table. Tough shit if you are of working age and vulnerable, you will just have to ride the odds that the vaccine works for you.

The numbers on this don't add up well for a scenario where next Christmas can be 'back to normal' for that reason.

(God the people who accuse people of doommongering are going to love this post!)

This does point to us having to keep schools open as much as possible now even if schools are transmitters, because we need the population to have perhaps a higher level of natural immunity to assist vaccine immunity than countries with a high bed capacity to prevent a delayed secondary covid crisis.

If you work out the numbers of this, i'm pretty sure we have to gamble on having more cases per 100,000 (and deaths) than Germany now because of our long term NHS capacity issues and the working assumption that a covid vaccine may only be as effective as the flu one and the logistical problems of expansion of mass testing. That means we have to run high on numbers whilst not being overwhelmed, if we are to avoid restrictions or a subsequent hospital overwhelming in 12 months time.

Hopefully a vaccine will be more effective than the flu one, but at this point in planning i think we have to go off the worst case predictions for how much of a difference it will make as our base scenario for 12 months time.

I don't really see much of alternative way around this for the uk because of our chronic bed shortage.

Obviously we hope that the vaccine performs better than the baseline strategy. Or that we can get around the very real cost and logistic barriers of mass testing before next winter.

But we can't guarantee either so we have to plan now taking that into consideration.

Perhaps someone can poke some ruddy great holes in my logic here for me, cos my baseline long term thinking on this isn't terribly great otherwise and we certainly won't be out of the woods next summer even with a vaccine.

But i think thats essentially where we are and why government strategy is where its at and where its headed. Its no longer merely about this winter. Its also next.

IceCreamSummer20 · 23/10/2020 09:57

@NeurotrashWarrior

Well said Ice.

I would hope people aren't accusing others of conspiracy when debating points of data. That is bullying. Debate the point. I didn't follow the thread as I was dealing with self isolation from school infections.

As an aside, I wish we could discuss the actual data around schools; it would have made discussions data driven. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be as easy to clarify by, as it appears it is in France.

I am actually really saddened that by challenging another poster MRex on a point of data, that I was told to ‘stop posting’ and that I was a conspiracy theorist.

I was even more upset to have even more of this (would you call it bullying? Whatever it is,it’s pretty nasty) from @BigChocFrenzy
Who replied I presume to me or Red or whoever
without these claims of bullying which is what I find spiteful and gaslighting. I don't have to take that shit and I won't and also to fucking go away

It is a lot of personal emotional and nasty language directed at posters - which has no place in a supposedly data driven and calm thread. One in which I’ve contributed for months - not that often but always with data and evidence. As anyone who bothers to look through my posts will know.

I do not feel that this is a place where it is OK for me to carry on posting (about data and evidence and analysis I might add!) without being told not to if it doesn’t suit some. It is simple human vulnerability that you don’t want to come on a thread which doesn’t feel safe and I can’t call someone out for attacking me. I should be able to challenge being called a conspiracy theorist and told to go away.

Most of you posters including @NeurotrashWarrior and @ancientgran are non attacking and compassions AND data driven - so thank you!

pussycatinboots · 23/10/2020 10:08

If everyone tries to do home delivery or click and collect later there will be more of a problem than a supply shock.

Red, if everyone does that no-one will get into the supermarket as it will be full of staff doing someone else's shopping and the public can't get in due to SD. Some aisles are rammed as it is with staff stocking up and other staff shopping at the same time.
The supermarkets who do home delivery or C&C need to clear the shop floor of "pickers" if that's what they're called during the hours they are opened to the public and do the "picking" and lots of re-stocking overnight/when they're shut to the public.

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2020 10:16

You don't think there will be queuing for hours and hours to get in the supermarket the week before Christmas anyway?

If you can go click and collect / home delivery / buy frozen or prebook your dinner / any other sort of pre planning your christmas shopping in order to bypass / reduce time in stores, i think you'd be wise to...

And i think thats what Tesco are worried about tbh.

FATEdestiny · 23/10/2020 10:25

Nottingham hospitals have stopped non-urgent surgery until November. Nottingham Post (local rag) reporting Tier 3 talks likely to conclude next week. Suggestion the announcement will be Monday to move into Tier 3 Wednesday.

Baaaahhhhh · 23/10/2020 10:29

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/10/21/data-intensive-care-units-shows-second-wave-wont-deadly-first/

Good news. More people recovering, death rate down, and what is perhaps most important, and effects all outcomes is:

The average time spent in intensive care is now just five days, compared with 12 in the first wave, which should free up beds

BigChocFrenzy · 23/10/2020 10:46

icecreamsummer20 The continual sniping and accusations from you and a couple of others are why I won't be continuing the threads
and I will be quitting MN by the end of this thread

So congratulations, you have managed to drive me off MN

OP posts:
Nellodee · 23/10/2020 10:53

@Baaaahhhhh Do you think that the improvement in outcomes could be related to earlier hospitalisation of less severe cases? I can't read the whole article, so I don't know what they are putting the improvement down to - I'm presuming it's partially earlier hospitalisation and partially improved treatment including reduced use of ventilation.

On the one hand, this would be excellent news, because it would mean that hospitalisation rates, like positive rates, were not directly comparable to the first wave, and that we are comparably at an earlier point in the wave than we might deduct from raw numbers.

On the other, it would mean that this would be prone to change if we outstrip capacity.

Swipe left for the next trending thread